Growing a Big Family Law Practice

Jonathan Merel: [00:00:00] I just couldn’t take coming home from work anymore and being frustrated and feeling underappreciated, undervalued. If you could just pour your frustration and like this feeling inside you into something that is yours, you know, imagine what you could do with it. When it’s yours, it’ll mean that much more to you.

I can’t promise you anything except That I will work my ass off and make sure you’re taken care of in the long run.

Jonathan Hawkins: If you want to grow, you’re going to have to take some risks. I mean, you just got to. Now you don’t want to be crazy, but you’re going to have to,

Jonathan Merel: you got to spend money to make money, but yeah, I mean, having high overhead sucks, but I mean, it probably means you’re doing something right.

Jonathan Hawkins: Superstars are hard to find when you find them. And if they’re available, you got to make space for them. You just got to do it. Even if you feel like you’re not ready.

Jonathan Merel: I swear to you. No one has ever asked me for a raise and that’s because I’m so proactive about it.

[00:01:00]

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to founding partner podcast. I’m your host Jonathan Hawkins. And today we’ve got another Jonathan on as a guest We’ve got Jonathan Merrill. He is law firm owner, of a growing pretty pretty decent sized and growing family law practice in the Chicago area plus And we’re going to dive into his background how he’s grown in the firm, all that stuff.

So Jonathan, thanks for coming. Great name. And uh, why don’t you introduce yourself? Tell us about you and your firm.

Jonathan Merel: Yeah. Great name. Great show. I’m happy to be here. I appreciate you having me on. You know, family law is all I’ve done [00:02:00] since law school. I mean, when I went into law school one, I didn’t even know why I was there and I certainly didn’t know what type of law I wanted to do. I figured it was just like, The next progression, I mean, my father is an attorney, my uncle.

I’m like, well, I guess I’ll just go to law school. So I really didn’t know what I was doing, where I wanted to go, what I wanted to practice. And after my first year, I kind of fell into a family law clerking job. And I’m like, okay, maybe I’ll try this. I kind of knew I didn’t want to do like transactional stuff.

I would just lose interest really quickly. So I’ll give this a shot. And I really liked it right from the get go. I mean, I liked the drama. I liked the real person kind of situations, not the stuffiness of like, you know, a corporate setting. And I really fell in love with it pretty quickly. And obviously, you know, worked there throughout law school, worked at another family law practice after passing the bar.

And then eventually after seven years, started my own [00:03:00] firm and took the leap. And here I am today about almost 16 years later than that.

Jonathan Hawkins: All right. So sitting here today, how, how many attorneys, how many? You know, locations. Tell us about that.

Jonathan Merel: We’re up to 20, 20 or 21 attorneys. We’re based primarily in Chicago, our main office. We just built the new office out in downtown Chicago. We have suburban locations in the Northern suburbs in Highland park in the Western suburbs and Hinsdale. And then just recently started expansion out of the state of Illinois.

And we opened up an office. in the Detroit metro areas, the suburbs of Detroit. So, we’re, we’re moving and shaking, and I mean, if you told me this is where I’d be at this point, I wouldn’t believe a word you said. But it’s exciting, and we have a great team over here.

Jonathan Hawkins: So we got a lot. We got a lot to talk about. We’re not going to have enough time to talk about everything I want to talk about. So we’ll, we’ll get to what we can. So, okay. So you said how many years ago did [00:04:00] you go out to start your firm?

Jonathan Merel: In March, it’ll be 16 years.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, you know, I’m always curious is, you know, your dad was a lawyer.

Maybe I think you said your uncle, did you always think you were going to start a firm or? Or how, what led to that?

Jonathan Merel: You know what? I didn’t really think that far, as ridiculous as it sounds. I was just, you know, Now the job market’s so different. I was just so happy to have a job period. I mean, my father did criminal defense. My uncle was more real estate, corporate stuff. So I knew I didn’t want really anything to do with that stuff, even though those two areas of the law often find themselves in my line of work, but I never really knew it until I started working at another firm and started noticing things that I thought. I didn’t really understand or didn’t like, I was really starting to like key in on parts of the practice that I didn’t understand why they were run certain ways. I didn’t like how the, you know, more superior partners, [00:05:00] owners treated people that were, you know, new lawyers or beneath them and staff. And I was just kind of keeping mental notes in my head.

And you know, as I started to become, more experience. I would be bringing in my own cases. And then I think the idea of starting my own practice started to, like, come to fruition. And I started thinking about it more where, you know, I could do this, and I think I could do it better than they’re doing.

So that kind of led me to think that. And, of course, it evolved. And eventually I left to start my own practice.

Jonathan Hawkins: So the firm you were at before you started yours, you were doing family law. Is that all they did or was that just a piece of,

Jonathan Merel: That was all they did. Just family law. You know, they had, they were probably, I mean, when we started, there were three partners and two associates, me being one of the associates they grew a little bit more, but now that firm’s no longer in existence, but you know, it never got to the size I’m at now.

But again, it gave me. Kind of some insight, obviously, to how [00:06:00] law firms work, the hierarchy, hiring, how you treat people, you know, creating a culture or lack thereof, all those things just really started hitting home for me. And, you know, I was taking mental notes along the way.

Jonathan Hawkins: so this idea starts to grow and grow and grow. Is it, you know, is it the sort of thing that was there? Then all of a sudden you’re like, all right, today’s the day. Or did you, you know, I talked to a lot of lawyers and they’re like, you know, some have planned for, Known for over a year and then others are, it’s basically it’s Friday and they say I’m out.

And then Monday they’ve opened doors. What was it like for you?

Jonathan Merel: Well, I just, I, it got to the point where I would, I kept bringing in business and I was never really. Rewarded enough for doing so, you know, they preached go out and get business, you know, we’ll reward you for it and You know, I would do that along with you know being the first person in the office the last person to leave billing more than anybody and You know, not that I [00:07:00] needed to be patted on the back every day, but I’m just like, you know, I’m busting my ass day and night for these people don’t seem to be rewarded in any respect.

So why shouldn’t I be doing this for myself? And did I have a date in mind? No, but my frustration continued to grow and grow to a point where I’m like, okay, I think I got to do this. You know, I had a. I don’t know. I probably had 15, 20 clients of my own and I think, you know, it was, it was horrible timing.

2009 I was about to, my second child was about to be born. You couldn’t pick a worse time. So I had my, I had my doubters and people saying this is a horrible idea, but I just knew from a mental standpoint, like I couldn’t be in this purgatory anymore and I needed to do something about it.

Jonathan Hawkins: In 2009, for those who may not remember, or maybe were too young to know, that was the wake of the great financial crisis. I mean, I remember, I mean, everybody was, I mean, stock market crashed, real estate was [00:08:00] terrible, people were getting laid off, the law students that had jobs were getting deferred, it was just terrible.

So, why that time for you? You just couldn’t stand it

Jonathan Merel: I just, you know what? It’s like I, I literally can like transport my back myself right back to that time period now and just like feel everything I was feeling like knowing, yes, this is a horrible idea. People telling me you shouldn’t do this. You have a stable job. It’s okay. Not everyone’s thrilled about the job they work in.

Wait for the right time. But like I just, It was just like this in the inner thing was just building in me to the point where I’m like, I can’t sit and do this anymore. Like, yes, this might be the worst time. Yes, this might be a very irresponsible decision, but I just couldn’t take coming home from work anymore and being frustrated and feeling underappreciated, undervalued.

So I took the plunge despite [00:09:00] my, you know, doubters and naysayers. And I said, I have to do this. I had support from those close to me, which, you know, made it a lot more doable and easier to stomach, but there were plenty of doubters. But you know, March 2009 you know, three months before my second child’s coming the midst of this horrible financial crisis, no one knows what’s up or down or what’s going to happen.

Is this the next great depression? I, you know, took the step and, I left.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, it sounds like you had the support of your wife. So that’s, that’s good. It’s been hard to do it. Otherwise, you know, it’s, funny that time period I, I remember do you know the firm Cordell, Cordell, whatever it’s the, I think they’re national. It’s a, they, I don’t know what they do now, but they used to market to men.

They only represented men in

Jonathan Merel: Yeah, they, I think they’re still focused on

Jonathan Hawkins: And I remember, I don’t know what year, but it was in the wake of the great financial crisis. I remember hearing on the radio, an ad for Cordell for Cordell. [00:10:00] They said, basically something like this, you met out there, the stock markets crash, your real estate portfolio is terrible.

Your finances are whatever. It’s a great time to get divorced.

Jonathan Merel: Things can’t get worse, so you might as well go for it now. Perfect timing. Yeah. I mean, it was bad timing, but I just, I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror anymore, and I couldn’t look at my people I was working with, you know, I just, like, I was starting to, like, lose motivation to, like, work my ass off, and I never wanted that lull in my career at any point, so I’m like, if you could just pour your frustration and, like, this, It’s feeling inside you into something that is yours, you know, imagine what you could do with it.

If you’re doing this for somebody else, you know, when it’s yours, it’ll mean that much more to you.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, you were lucky you had, like you said, 15, 20 clients that I assume went with you. So that’s good. What about staff or, or help? Did you have anybody or

Jonathan Merel: Yeah. So the funny story, like I, at my old firm, I fought and fought, I’m [00:11:00] like, I really could use, you know, a law clerk of my own. Can you please get me a law clerk? And it literally took years to finally get them to say, all right, we’re going to let you get a law clerk. Fine. I like literally fought those like.

to ever happen to me. So this was probably about 3 I was making the move. So time and like, great, I’v I interviewed these peopl Two and a half months after my law clerk started, I said to her, look, I know this might come off as awkward and you know, I will leave the decision up to you, but I’m leaving to start my own firm. Please don’t tell anybody yet, but you know, I think you’re great. And it’s just me. And it would be just us.

And we’ve got some shitty little office on the other side of town, but you know, I’d really like it if you would come with me, I’m sure the firm here knows how great [00:12:00] you are and we’ll try to get you to stay here, but you know, I can’t promise you anything except that. I will work my ass off and make sure you’re taken care of in the long run.

And I still, to this reason, don’t understand why she did it, but she came with me. And she’s now the managing partner of the firm here. So she’s like literally been with me through all of it. Melissa. She’s. The best. And she runs the firm, you know, the ins and outs of the firm managing everybody. And thank God she made that decision.

I don’t know why, but I thank her for it to this

Jonathan Hawkins: It’s meant to be.

Jonathan Merel: Yeah, I guess

Jonathan Hawkins: So I’m just curious, you may not want to go into this, I don’t know, but when you, when you told your firm you’re leaving how did they take it? Was it were they mad? Were they, did they think you were crazy? Did they try to convince you to stay? What, what, how’d they, how’d that go?

Jonathan Merel: well, they were not happy. And I actually left a letter to them like the [00:13:00] day of, you know, saying I’m leaving and, you know, these are my clients, they’re coming with me. I don’t want any of your clients. And then, you know, just based on like, and this happens, I’m sure when anyone kind of leaves a firm, if you know, there’s a client that’s only dealt with one lawyer at the firm and it wasn’t the partners, despite the fact that the partners might’ve brought in the case, there were other parties.

you know, clients who said, you know, I’m going with you and you know, I can’t force them to stay with another firm. I said, look, you have to talk to them about it. You know, it’s up to you guys as to what you want to do. So it was a little messy for a little bit. You know, some of them I keep in touch with a little, but I don’t think they wish me well.

And that motivated me even more just because they didn’t support it. And I think maybe looking back, they wish they treated me differently. But I made it clear to them why I was leaving. I, there was no, I made no bones about it. I made it clear just that you treated me like shit. You never [00:14:00] appreciated me.

You never paid me what I should have been paid. And. That’s why I’m leaving. So, you know, and this didn’t come out of nowhere. I had given them reasons as to, you know, why, what I was doing should have made me be considered for partner and, you know, that was never done. So, I mean, all this kind of fueled me to do this and to work harder.

And you know, it’s like you see in sports, like athletes who. You know, want to beat the teams that didn’t draft them ahead of them. Like it was kind of like that, like you didn’t want me. So like, I want to be that much better than you. And I want to beat you because of that, that kind of stuff fueled me.

And it’s similar to like what you hear from athletes,

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, it’s interesting, and I want to circle back to something you just said there in a minute and it’s clear that and it’s a LinkedIn post you did, and I don’t want to touch on it yet. But it’s clear that where that came from. So I definitely want to circle back to that, but, and it’s, you know, it’s how you were treated.

I hear this a lot too. [00:15:00] Lawyers say, you know, I didn’t know what I was going to do, but I knew I was not going to do what was being done at my firm. Right. And then once it’s yours, you, you have control, you can do what you want. And so, okay, so to start it, it’s just you and your law clerk in some shitty office.

And now you’ve got 20 lawyers probably a ton of staff and multiple offices in across two states. So that’s a lot of growth. I mean, that’s, that’s good. And most, I don’t know how it is in Chicago, but. You know, most family law firms, 20 is, is huge, is big for a family law firm. Is that considered big for family

Jonathan Merel: it is. Yeah. I mean, there’s probably. I don’t know, three or four firms of our size in Chicago. And it is big. Yeah. It’s definitely big for someone that does strictly family law and yeah, I never thought we’d get to this, this number, but here we are and, you know, I assume it will keep

Jonathan Hawkins: So, so let me ask about that. You know, I have a, my theory, theory is probably the wrong word, but [00:16:00] a belief that if you’re going to grow a firm, really grow it, it’s, you have to decide. You have to want it. You have to decide to do it. It’s, it’s not really something that happens by accident in my opinion.

And so I guess the first question is Is that something that at some point you said, all right, we’re going to try to grow this baby. Or, or did it something

Jonathan Merel: Yeah, well, I mean, look, I’ve always been like what I believe is like a progressive thinker in like the legal space when I started the firm, like even the idea of like having like a great website and pouring a ton into like internet marketing was something that a lot of these like dinosaurs in my industry here didn’t even think about.

I mean, if they’re thinking like yellow pages or we don’t even need to market or, you know, business just comes to us and maybe that’s how it worked for them. But I always wanted to be like, you know, on the forefront of, you know, pushing the envelope when it comes to like marketing and how to market and where to market, and, you know, this [00:17:00] was right at kind of like the beginning of like a huge push for digital marketing in the legal space, and I really.

You know, took the bull by the horn, so to say, when that came out and pushed that. And that, that led to a lot of clients being directed to me that I probably obviously wouldn’t have gotten just from word of mouth or, you know, personal referrals. So that kind of Much sooner than I thought really like gave me the business that I didn’t think I would have starting out.

I mean, I went again, just again, taking into things. These are things I brought up at the old firm that they poo pooed. We don’t need to do that. I said, we really need to get a good website and make sure like people are impressed by what’s there. No, we don’t need to do that. So again, just keeping these mental notes in my head and, you know, thinking of things that I was going to do the second my firm started.

So. By really pushing that and putting money that frankly, I didn’t even have and taking risks to do marketing and pushing the [00:18:00] envelope thankfully paid off and led to, you know, not a huge boom in business, but definitely business that allowed me to, you know, hire Melissa as my first associate, you know, when that.

You know, she got so busy that it would be pushing for the second associate, you know, always like taking the step, full time staff, secretaries then law clerks. So like the business itself really gave me perspective on, okay, this firm’s going to grow. And once I saw that, you know, even before I had the resources I had now, that that would get the firm growing in size.

I always It was very apparent that I could do this and that the firm would grow quicker than I ever thought it was. And then once that started happening, you know, I was of the mindset, like, let’s grow this thing.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, it’s the risk. You mentioned risk. That’s another thing that you know, if you want to grow, you’re going to have to take some risks. I mean, you just got to now, you don’t want to be crazy, but you’re going to have to, and then, you know, another thing you mentioned, so you put in all [00:19:00] this time, energy, money into some of the marketing, the website, these sorts of things, then you start to see an increase in clients and you’re like, Oh shit, I got to go hire people to help me.

Uh, So then you hire people and then you’re probably like, Oh man, they’re not busy enough. So then this is back and forth and back and forth. And before you know it, you know, you got eight lawyers. So how do you, or how did you sort of in your mind, think about that sort of the. The, you know, the the balance of investing in the marketing piece and the bow and then, you know, countering that with bringing in the people because, and we’ll talk about recruiting and how you got the people in a second, but how do you balance those,

Jonathan Merel: Yeah. I mean, that was a great point you brought up. Cause every time I would hire someone, I’m be like, well, they’re not going to have any, any work to do. Like, what am I doing? I’m paying these people, I’m giving them health insurance benefits. And like, they’re just going to be sitting at their desk. So that was always my fear.

And. You know, I’m sure it could have gone the other way, but I think I’ve been fortunate enough where the business, you know, had such a good [00:20:00] trajectory that clients did keep coming in and, you know, no one really just had to sit on their ass all day doing nothing. Sure. Were there days where obviously where there wasn’t a ton of work, but I always like to be, you know, Hiring in advance as opposed to like, you know, chasing my tail being behind because we don’t have enough people.

And that remains true today. I’d rather have, you know, enough infrastructure than not enough. So, yes, I mean, it’s terrifying to hire someone when you don’t know if you need them, especially at the beginning. When you’re just getting started and be like, Oh, this could derail everything. And then they’re going to say they worked here and had nothing to do.

And my firm’s going to look so stupid. I, everything went through my head. And again, this is just in the middle midst of trying to get things going. And I mean, I remember probably the first five to 10 years, every time I would hire someone, I would question whether or not I could afford to do it. As I’m sure many business owners have the same thought process.

Jonathan Hawkins: you [00:21:00] know, don’t tell me specifics, but I bet you, you look at your, your monthly overhead now compared to what it was way back then. You probably stroke out if you, if you thought that

Jonathan Merel: oh my God, my overhead is, it’s out of control. I know I think about it and then I’m always, I always say, look, you got to spend money to make money. But yeah, I mean, having high overhead sucks, but I mean, it probably means you’re doing something right. And again, if you have a bigger goal in mind and you’re investing money into the business for, you know, something greater, bigger down the road, then I guess that’s how you justify it,

Jonathan Hawkins: And so another piece of, of taking the risk. So you know, it’s one thing to keep adding people in one office and it’s another thing to open another office and another thing to open another office in another state. So how do you approach that?

Jonathan Merel: Yeah. I mean, again, it’s like the common theme of taking risks. I just don’t think ever goes away. I mean, I would think at some point, yes, there’s [00:22:00] less of a risk, obviously of complete failure of the business. I hope we’re past that point, but all these kind of like inching out further beyond your comfort zone in doing things that.

You know, you never really thought about doing from the get go. I consider it to be risks, but calculated risks. And I think the more established the business is and the more good people you’ve surrounded you with yourself with, the more calculated the risks become as opposed to just, you know, throwing a bunch of shit against the wall and hoping something sticks.

So when we talked about opening our first suburban office. You know, felt good reason for it just because I knew there was a sense of people who live in the suburbs and just didn’t want to come downtown to the city. And, you know, a lot of our client base obviously is based in the city, but plenty also in the suburbs.

So we strategically picked the places that we wanted these suburban offices. And sure enough, like [00:23:00] clients enjoyed going there and not having to come downtown or, you know, people who have. You know, they got to get home for kids from school or whatever the reason they don’t have to come downtown.

Obviously, we have our clients in the city who come to the office in the city, but It just made sense. And you know, when it came to moving out of state, that kind of just created itself almost because one of my partners is from Michigan and moved back home. But, you know, she’s so great. We wanted her to be part of the firm.

She wanted to be part of the firm. So she became kind of like our first. remote employee with roots in the Detroit area, and it just seemed like a good opportunity after discussing it with my partners and talking to her to, you know, see if it works. So that kind of was like, The origin of the Detroit office, which is started to take off.

And we kind of fell into that one, but that was of course also a risk and still remains one, but it’s been going well, thankfully.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah, that makes sense. So how do you you [00:24:00] personally, and then the firm manage the different offices? You know, it’s just the more offices you have, the more complex it gets. So how do you,

Jonathan Merel: Yeah. I mean, we have, we have,

Jonathan Hawkins: spend time visiting all the offices personally or?

Jonathan Merel: hop around to the offices. I’m downtown the most, which is our big headquarters and everyone’s. Most of our firm is here, but you know, we have partners at the suburban offices. So we’ve kind of got like our. People in charge of each place and, you know, we also use them as satellite offices.

So lawyers from the firm are popping into all the locations, at least in the Chicago area all the time. So whether it’s meeting a client, they’re working out there cause we have court in the, in those counties. It’s just kind of like a pit stop for our employees and also, you know, easy for clients to come in.

But we do have partners that are based out of each location.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let’s talk about your role in the firm and how that sort of, what it is now and maybe how that’s changed over the years. Are you [00:25:00] still doing active client work? Or you, have you moved on from that?

Jonathan Merel: So I’m actively involved with cases all day long. But right around the time that COVID hit, like I found myself before that, you know, being in court for like trials or depositions, you know, that would take up my whole day. I’d get out of the court or out of a deposition at, you know, four or five o’clock and I’d have.

20 clients being like, where are you? Why aren’t you responding to me? And that, you know, that doesn’t even account for running the business itself. So I really had to take a look in the mirror. I’m like, you know, I have such incredible people here, you know, as attorneys, staff that, you know, are doing a great job, but you know, you always, it’s always tough to let go.

Like I always wanted to be the one in court. I wanted to be one advocating for my client, but at the same time, I didn’t want to shortchange. The people who rely on me, meaning everybody in the company and the business itself, and of course the clients. So [00:26:00] I really made like a conscious decision. I sat everybody in my firm down.

I remember this, like it was yesterday. And I said, look, my role is changing here. I will still be intricately involved in cases. Every client will have my phone number if they need to talk to me. I will be bringing business in, of course, talking to clients, meeting with clients, you know, for important discussions that we need to have as a team, but I just can’t, I can’t be in court as much as I was before.

And, you know, it’s just taking away from everybody. So slowly, but surely my. Presence in court would dissipate while still having a big part of each file like I still to this day, of course, I’m intricately involved in our cases and I’m on the phone with clients all the time, but just the court itself. I have such great lawyers in my office.

that, you know, I trust more than I trust myself now. So it’s very reassuring knowing that my clients are in [00:27:00] excellent hands. I can take a step back, focus on the business, obviously client relations and you know, bringing in business for the firm.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I mean, it really is an evolution. I mean, I’m going through it. I think every lawyer goes through it. Where if you’re growing a firm, I mean, it’s hard to do all the, all the things you gotta, you know, You gotta do the operations recruiting You’re you’re sort of doing sales or whatever intake whatever you want to call it consults and then do the legal work and when a judge is Saying be a court here and the deposition notice goes out here, you know, you can’t do it all and then still do that I mean you can try but it’s you’re spinning plates and your brain can’t I mean, maybe your brain is better than mine But it’s it’s hard hard to do it all.

Jonathan Merel: can’t do it. You can’t. And it’s really, it was really, really hard to give it up because I love being a litigator. I love being in court. But, you know, you just have to take a step back and say, what am I best served for? And again, [00:28:00] you’re only as good as the people you have.

I mean, if I didn’t have a team of excellent attorneys working here, it would be much harder to do that. But that made the decision obviously much easier to stomach when you know you have great people filling in.

Jonathan Hawkins: So yeah, let’s talk about the people I know culture you mentioned you’ve mentioned it a few times, you know, you got your Affirm before to compare it to and you’ve created yours. You’ve got a lot of employees. It’s clearly important to you. So how do you describe, how would you describe the culture of your firm and how have you cultivated that and made sure that it stays the way you want it to be?

Jonathan Merel: I mean, we work our asses off here, but we love being around each other. I mean, it’s really that work hard, play hard mentality. I mean, we have a group of people that Enjoy being around each other. They enjoy helping each other. They enjoy supporting each other which is hard to find. And I think, you know, especially in the days of Covid with people being so [00:29:00] remote and no one really, you know, brushing shoulders with each other we, I always really pushed.

Continuing to come into the office and promoting like a workspace where people wanted to get out of their house and come to the office, even, you know, in the middle of the pandemic. And, you know, that was, you know, maybe frowned upon by other people and other attorneys, but I continued to push it. Of course, you know, with the shutdown, we had to work from home, but Slowly, but surely people started trickling back to the office.

And I really was enforcing the idea of, you know, we’re a team. We need to be able to, you know, shoot the shit with each other, run into someone’s office, bounce something off them, have just the general human camaraderie that people have when they’re in the office together. All the while knowing that our lease was going to be ending in a couple of years and having this vision for creating a space that would really be. Bringing my dream of a workspace to reality. So really [00:30:00] pushing for that. I didn’t want to slip back into remote work. Cause I thought that would really take away from the culture we’re creating, but having everyone together, hiring people that you think would fit this culture and this team that we have was all at the forefront and the top of my mind.

And I think. You know, if people kind of slowly wilt back to their homes and are working from home and not in the office as much and they’re not going to want to come in, they’re not going to be as tight and have the relationships that they’ve, that they would have with their coworkers. And I’ve always pushed that and thankfully it worked to create the culture we have today.

Jonathan Hawkins: I mean, I’m with you. I think in office is way better than remote. Now, maybe you could have a hybrid of some sort, but there’s just something, you know, there’s all this debate about, well, you can train people remote. It’s, it’s not even about the training. In my view, it’s really about the relationships part.

That part is hard to do. And really, I mean, you can maintain some relationship. [00:31:00] Like we’re talking now we we’ve, we’ve got a little relationship going, but if we see each other every day. All day every day. It’s gonna be a lot different. It’s gonna be a lot different a lot better

Jonathan Merel: completely. And I mean, what’s crazy to me too is that, you know, in the midst of COVID and even now, like some of my competitors are like completely remote or almost all remote. You have lawyers who have been practicing three years who have never talked to a client in person.

They’ve never worked in a law office and some of them have never been in a courtroom. So it’s like, how is that setting them up for success longterm in a career in the law when you’ve never essentially functioned in the real world as a lawyer? I mean, sure. There are places for remote work. It’s easy in certain circumstances, but it just can’t replace being a good lawyer, knowing how to talk to people, you know, learning these skills that look that especially young lawyers need from the get [00:32:00] go that are just pushed to the wayside.

And then, you know, courts are really starting to come back. Cook County, Chicago’s County was really the last one to really Come back to in person, but I mean, sooner than later, that’s gonna be all in person. So I’m just curious as to what these lawyers are gonna do, what these firms are gonna do that sent everybody home, downsized their offices, because no one needed to be downtown for court and now it’s all coming back.

Jonathan Hawkins: People could be taking a lot of anxiety meds that that can’t be around people,

Jonathan Merel: A lot of Xanax. A lot of Xanax.

​

Jonathan Hawkins: so, you know people obviously it’s important for you. You’ve got your culture building So and and you’re and you’re growing your firm. So another big issue that I’ve seen a lot of people talk about You know is the people getting the right people [00:33:00] In the firm, you know, at some point once you figured out the marketing in my view, and I’ve talked to others who agree that the marketing is sort of it, I’m not gonna say it’s easy, but it’s an easier dial to turn.

The people part is, I think the harder part, getting the right people that fit your culture, that all that kind of stuff. So how do you go about finding those people to? You know, do the work

Jonathan Merel: It’s real. I mean, that is, that’s my biggest struggle. I mean, it’s hard to find the people that you want, especially if you’re looking for, you know, not just good lawyers, but, you know, good lawyers that will fit the culture we have here. It’s not easy. And we’re always looking, our door is always open to people, you know, we’re always hiring.

So, like I said, even if, you know, we may not necessarily need a huge influx of attorneys, if there’s good talent out there that’s interested and we can connect with them, like we’re going to hire them because hopefully we’ll keep growing. And [00:34:00] again, you just. You, you cannot, you can’t just get people and expect to mold them.

So if we find the right person, who’s got the right mindset and who we think will fit our culture, we’re going to do whatever it takes to get them here.

Jonathan Hawkins: and that’s another point that my philosophy now is Superstars are hard to find a players whatever you want to call them They’re hard to find and when you find them and if they’re available, you got to make space for them You just got to do it. Even if you feel like you’re not ready

Jonathan Merel: For sure. I could not agree more. I mean, even if you can’t afford them or you don’t have the work or whatever it is. they’re priceless to me. I mean, just because, you know, even if they’re not from a bottom line standpoint, if it’s for like mentorship or, you know, just how they, how they act or their reputation in a courtroom or just the prestige that they bring all those things.

Don’t necessarily have a dollar amount, but are crucial to being part of your firm. [00:35:00] And you just, you have to get the best people. And if you don’t, you know, your work product is going to suffer. Your reputation is going to suffer. And you know, we want to uphold the reputation that we’ve built.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I alluded earlier to a LinkedIn post of yours. First of all, you’ve got a pretty good LinkedIn Good. I really like it, but this,

Jonathan Merel: Yeah. I love

Jonathan Hawkins: this post it was a banger of a post, man. I mean, the repost, the, I mean, I I can’t imagine how many impressions that thing got, but, but basically it’s something about, you’ve never had an employee ask for a raise.

So, so tell me and tell the audience about that.

Jonathan Merel: think that post was like two years ago or something, and that still holds true today. And it’s, you know, people called him bullshit on it and they said, there’s no way that’s true. He’s just saying this, I swear to you, no one has ever asked me for a raise. And that’s because I’m so proactive about it, whether it’s some like complex I have, [00:36:00] I’m just, I, and again, right or wrong.

And I know people are very happy here. I just have the mindset that I want to make sure my people are happy. And. Whether that’s based in logic or rationale or not, I don’t know, but like, it keeps me up at night, even though it probably shouldn’t, because I know everyone loves working here but it’s always on my mind.

And as the success of the firm has grown, I’ve always wanted, you know, the successes and the fruits of our label, our labor to be shared with everybody here. And that’s why I’m always on, you know, I have reminders in my phone, whether it be once a month or every six weeks, like. And I just put it in my phone.

It’s just dollar signs. And that’s my reminder. Like, Hey, make sure you’re looking over everyone’s pay, find out when their last raise was, we have a review system in place, obviously, where we’re talking to people. And again, I I’ve just, I’ve never been greedy and. Yes, the success has been [00:37:00] great and amazing, but it’s not because of me alone.

That’s for sure. It’s because of everyone there and I just want everyone that works for me to be happy. And of course, you know, happiness has a lot to do with money. We’re all doing this to make a living and No one to this date has ever asked me for a raise because I’ve always given them one.

Jonathan Hawkins: I think that’s really cool. And it, and it brings us full circle back to. Your last job where you’re like, Hey man, you gotta pay me. So

Jonathan Merel: I think about that all the time. I mean, I had to literally beg them to talk to them about getting a raise. And I mean, I think my first salary was 32, 000 a year. So that just shows you where I was then again. different times now, but still, I didn’t have my own office. My office was a conference room table that I had to get up when people had to use it.

I made no money, but I was thrilled to have a job and learning, but how they treated me and, you know, they’re not acknowledging me busting my ass day and night for them always stuck [00:38:00] with me. And again, back to where we are. I knew if I ever started my firm, I never wanted my employees to be like that.

Jonathan Hawkins: cool. Well, I hope one day I have a LinkedIn post like that one. I’m going to have to come up with, that was,

Jonathan Merel: was a good

Jonathan Hawkins: I wish I had it in front of me. The stats. I mean,

Jonathan Merel: And it was, it was crazy. All the haters, like people really are like, it’s complete bullshit. There’s no way that’s true. And I’m like, finally, when it started, you know, there wasn’t like millions of people doing it. I was trying to respond, like, I swear you can ask anyone who works there.

And then finally it got too, it went too viral. I’m like, I give up.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah, that’s awesome. So, you know, you know, looking at your website, talking to you, you know, it’s impressive what you’ve done. You got the 20 attorneys, which is I’ll just, you know. Somewhat unusual size big on the big side for a family law firm. Another thing I noticed on your website, this is something I was curious about.

There’s like a divorce coach on your, on your website and maybe that’s, I’ve never seen it. I’ve heard maybe that these people [00:39:00] exist, but I’ve never seen it on a, on a law firm’s website. So tell me about

that

Jonathan Merel: Yeah. I mean, we are, if we’re not the only one, there can’t be many more, but again, just certainly taking a step back. I’ve always wanted to be like progressive in my thinking and getting out of like the mold of like the old stuck up law firm with the old school mentality, who’s just, you know, this is how the laws and that’s what we’re going to do.

Like, especially in this area of the law, there’s, There’s so much more to it than, you know, dollars and cents and figuring out things and laws and support and all that stuff. Like you have people here in the midst of really, really stressful situations. And I’ve always thought like, why do law firms only have to cater to like the legal stuff where you know, the clients are coming in frazzled and freaking out and you know, they’re talking to these guys and women in suits that are just all business.

Like, how is that really helping them? Like, sure, they may have their [00:40:00] therapist, but therapists aren’t really in communication with lawyers and the whole process itself, so divorce coaching is something that’s become more prevalent. I mean, it’s people who get licensed as divorce coaches who really work with people going through divorce, talk to them about the process.

They’re not therapists, but, you know, they’re essentially working on, like, the emotional aspect. Yeah. And the emotional toll that divorces take on families, obviously, individually, children. And I thought that was always overlooked by the law and law firms who practice family law. So I really had it in my head probably two, three years ago, like why don’t law firms have their own, you know, divorce coaches that can provide that support in house.

And I was searching around and I could not find any law firms who had anybody that You know, it was a divorce coach on staff. So finally last year at the beginning of the year, I just, you know, started scouring [00:41:00] LinkedIn and everywhere I could to find someone that I thought could be a great match for this.

And I came across Christina Lindsay, who’s, you know, now works for us. And I mean, she has an amazing background in, obviously divorce coaching, but domestic violence, dealing with the emotional aspects of divorce, which are all part of the curriculum and becoming a certified divorce coach. And I thought this could be a great fit for our firm.

It could be great for our clients and it could be great for us as attorneys too, because we’re not mental health professionals, even though we think we are half the time, because we deal with it, you know, why not be able to hand off or work together with an in house divorce coach on our team that could.

work with our clients, whether it be separately or together as a group and really focus on, you know, the emotional aspect of divorce and helping clients who are really struggling with the process and the fact that their family’s breaking up, whether it be kids, domestic violence, a million issues and help them get through [00:42:00] it.

So we hired Christina last year and It’s been amazing. I mean, I’ve had judges come up to me and say how great of an idea they think it is. And she’s been so great. Just, I mean, for our clients and obviously for us as the attorneys as well, and clients really look at it. They’re really surprised to even see that this is part of our firm.

And when they start talking to her, I mean, they love talking to her and it just becomes, it’s a great, it’s obviously a great thing to give to our clients, but it’s also great from a

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I was going to

Jonathan Merel: that. You know, we’re, we’re not just selling attorneys here, you know, this is something where we understand what you’re going through and have other resources that other firms don’t have.

So I, I think it will become more of a prevalent thing. But it’s nice to be, you know, someone blazing the trail in that sense.

Jonathan Hawkins: so how does it work? So I’m, I’m a, I’m a new client. Does any client have access or do they pay a little extra? Is it included in

Jonathan Merel: So, yeah, I mean, we bill her at [00:43:00] a lower hourly rate than attorneys. But yeah, anyone who wants access to her can have it. I mean, we obviously, you know, no one has to use her. You know, there are people who. Don’t think they want to for whatever reason or if they’re fine or there’s, you know, it’s maybe it’s not as deeply emotional of a divorce as others, but we give them the option.

We explain to them what, you know, she does. We give them, you know, a free initial talk to talk to her and see if they have a rapport and they like to talk to her if they want. But yeah, we don’t push it on anybody. And, you know, we’ve actually more and more recently people are calling and saying, you know, I’d really like to talk to your divorce coach and your firm stuck out by having that as a resource to us.

So I think it’s, it’s serving the purpose like it is, and I hope it continues to grow.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I, you’re going to get some copycats if you haven’t already. I, that I think is such a differentiator in the [00:44:00] marketplace. I’ve never seen it before. Maybe it’s out there, but I’ve never seen it. It reminds me. I had an elder lawyer, Brian Tully on, on the podcast a while back. And he, he, I can’t remember what the title is, but it’s a non attorney sort of health type professional that is part of the team, you know, and it, it adds to the legal services that they provide it’s, it’s really a cool.

Add on. I think,

Jonathan Merel: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I just think in this day and age in our society, like these kind of things are more, you know, people are so concerned about as they should be their health, their wellness, you know, like their emotional state. I mean, especially when you’re going through something like this, why not offer that as a resource that can work in conjunction with your lawyers that, you know, has insight to what’s going on with your case and can obviously craft their advice based on the situation and what’s happening.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah, that’s really cool. That is, that’s a good thing. So obviously you’re an innovator. You’re always think sort of thinking ahead. I’m curious, you [00:45:00] know, when, when you, you gotta have a certain kind of mindset to start a firm, but then a different mindset to grow it. And so maybe, you know, how would you describe your mindset in terms of scaling and operating your firm and maybe how has it changed over the years?

Jonathan Merel: Yeah, I mean, look, we, I never want to sacrifice the service we’re providing at the end of the day, you know, you can grow and you can spend as millions on marketing and get as many clients as you want. But I mean, at the end of the day, we have a job to do. And I the last thing I would ever want to do is sacrifice the quality of representation that we’re providing in exchange for just growth to say, Oh, we’ve got offices in Florida and Michigan and California.

I mean, if I’m not able to provide like the level of service. and quality of service that we’ve built our name on, then I would never grow at all. So if we’re able to do that, get the right people like we talked about and [00:46:00] continue to grow in that respect, then yes, but I don’t want to grow just for the sake of growing.

If it’s going to sacrifice what we’re here to do. And that’s, you know, Provide good legal representation. So that’s always in the back of my head. Sure. You could grow to all these different states, but if you don’t have the right people on the team doing it, there’s no point. And it’s just going to tarnish your reputation.

And that’s the last thing I want to do.

Jonathan Hawkins: So, you know, you’ve been doing this 16 years. You’ve, you’ve done a lot. You’ve tried a lot, I’m sure. I’m curious, as you look back over, you know, your firm, is there anything that maybe you wish you had not done or maybe something you had done sooner?

Jonathan Merel: Well, I wish again, I went, I keep saying like, oh, you shouldn’t, you know, the last three years of your old job was. You know, you hated it. You were miserable. So in that respect, I wish I would have done it sooner. But I thought, you know, I had to get more confidence before I, you know, lift it off to my own practice, but I really don’t have a lot of regrets.

I mean, if I made some, you [00:47:00] know, business decisions from like a marketing perspective that maybe, you know, got me into contracts that I shouldn’t have been in or that I, you know. Stretch myself a little too thin. Sure. But I mean, you know, in the big picture, these are not consequential. And I mean, again, I get asked that question a lot.

I really would not change much. I really wouldn’t. I’ve just thought through every decision and there’s going to be bumps in the roads no matter what. And you know, I’m so happy where we’re at and the people that I have, I really would not change much at all. I know that’s a boring answer, but it’s the

Jonathan Hawkins: well, you know, you mentioned something there that if you do this long enough there are going to be things that you tried that you try that it’s, you look back on it. You’re like, I should have just thrown it, gone on vacation or burned the money or thrown a party or something instead,

Jonathan Merel: Exactly.

Jonathan Hawkins: it would have been more fun.

Jonathan Merel: For sure, it would have been more fun.

Jonathan Hawkins: that’s

Jonathan Merel: For sure.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So, so I know, I know. You work hard, man. I can [00:48:00] tell. That’s, that’s part of you. And I, I assume that, you know, others in your firm are that way too. But what do you do outside of work? What do you do for fun? How old are your kids now?

Jonathan Merel: What do I do? I love, I mean, I love traveling. And again, like you said, I mean, I’m sure you’re the same way. You could be out of the office, but you’re always in the office mentally. So, you know, even if I’m out of the office, I’m always working. What I love to do. I mean, I love playing golf traveling. I like seeing music, you know, concerts.

Obviously spending time with my kids or now in high school. So they don’t like spending time with me as much anymore, but but yeah, I mean, you know, Family, traveling, music golf, and it keeps me busy. I mean, you got to get away again. That’s another thing that I preach here is, especially in this line of work, it can get so stressful, like you need to get away sometimes, whether it be for a mental health break or not.

And you know, some of us are able to get away and that may be physically out of the office, but you know, you’re always [00:49:00] working in some capacity. You’re always, I mean, this. Era with your phones. I’m always looking at my email, even though sometimes I should put it away. Like that’s just me and that’s probably never going to change, but you definitely need mental health breaks.

You know, I try to promote that even in the office. We’ve got happy hours. We built in our new space. We have like, you know, tons of great amenities. We have a A meditation room. We have a Peloton room. We have like a, bar and lounge and ping pong tables and foosball. So it’s become a great place to work where you can obviously work your ass off and then you could, you know, take a breather too.

And so I’m always trying to create a fun work environment here where, you know, while it’s all business, it’s not always all business and we could, you know, take a step back, have a drink, relax, whatever it is that people want to do just to keep your sanity.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I’m with you. You need a break. You need to take some time off. I mean, me personally, I just I like it. It’s fun for me. Growing the [00:50:00] firm. It’s just fun. It’s like it’s hard for me to turn it off. And it’s if you enjoy doing it, why should you turn it off? Right?

Jonathan Merel: Of course. Well, I mean, it’s got to be a labor of love. It’s a lot harder if it’s not. I mean, if you’re trying to grow something that you have no interest in and that, you know, it’s not fueling you even more it’s hard to remain in that business and you probably wouldn’t be where you are. Anyway, so yeah, I agree.

I love it. I can’t imagine, frankly, retiring ever. I, I need, I need the stimulation. I need the action. I need the, you know, involvement and, you know, sitting still on a beach is nice once in a while, but I’m usually with there looking at my phone the whole time.

Jonathan Hawkins: So looking back, if you had to pick one or two things, what would you attribute? Transcribed the success or, or the contribution to the growth of your firm.

Jonathan Merel: I think it’s what we just, I think it’s hard work. I mean, you know, there are some people who just have that innate sense [00:51:00] where. They’re always working and, you know, success isn’t given to anybody. You got to work your ass off. And like you alluded to, like, if you love it, I mean, there’s nothing better.

Then doing something you love, loving what you do, working hard. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s working your ass off. That gets people to the levels of success they want to be at and creates the hunger for even more success. And if you don’t, if you don’t have that trait of being a hard worker and always kind of thinking about work in some respect, I think it’s difficult to get to where you want to be.

So, I mean that, and of course. Surrounding myself with great people that creates the firm that creates, you know, the business and the, obviously the, the good reputation we have. So hard work and surrounding yourself with great people, I think are crucial keys to success.

Jonathan Hawkins: So let me ask this. So this is something that I’ve, I’ve had. So one day I’m just like, hell yeah, I know what I’m doing. We’re going it’s, this is it. And [00:52:00] then the next day I’m like, Oh shit, what am I doing? It’s like, I don’t have a clue what I’m doing here. So do you have those thoughts?

Jonathan Merel: it’s a roller coaster. I mean, that’s life in anything you do. You’re like, yeah, this is all going smooth. And then you’re like, whoa, wait a second. What is going on here?

Jonathan Hawkins: the other thing. It’s like right when you, right. When everything’s smooth, right. When you’re like, yeah, I figured it out. Something happens. It’s always and it’s always something different, right?

Jonathan Merel: it’s always but that keeps us going.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Okay. So again, so 2016 years, 20 attorneys, two states, lots of offices. You know, you’re ambitious. I can tell you’re working hard.

You’re sitting here today. What, what’s the vision? What, where do you see this thing going? Where would you like it to go?

Jonathan Merel: You know, I don’t know. Again, if I can maintain the same, the same. You know, quality. Then I think sky is the limit. If I reach a place where I’m having a hard time, you know, maintaining the quality that I think growth could [00:53:00] perhaps stop. I just I just the quality and the reputation that we have built up is so important to me that could would be the only thing I think that could stunt our growth is if we can’t maintain that. If we can, you know, I’ll keep it going. I think we have a good formula. We have a good obviously a great core of people here. So I don’t think it would be that difficult to continue expanding, but not at the sake of the quality. So that would really be the only thing that held me back.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. I mean, that’s part of it. It’s I mean, surely you’re capable. You could keep doing it. And then do you want to, and is it the way you want it to be right?

Jonathan Merel: Right.

Jonathan Hawkins: the other thing that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve encountered, you know, my kids are twins that are now freshmen in high school. So maybe close to yours.

it’s a little bit easier now that, I mean, they still talk to me, but You know, it’s, it’s a lot lighter of a load than it was when they were younger. So it’s, I have more time and energy, well, I have more time at least, [00:54:00] but also I’m older too. So it’s

Jonathan Merel: I mean, well, once you’re, you don’t look old, once your kids, I mean, my kids love me, but once they get their driver’s license, goodbye. I literally, I mean, I try, you know, staying up before they get home. That’s what it’s like. But they’re great kids. But yes, that frees up so much time. It’s like, you know, and I have girls, so I don’t have a million basketball games and soccer games or they do dance.

So it’s not like I have tons of obligations to go see their stuff or coach their stuff. And it leaves time open and, you know, there’s only so much golf I could play before I want to kill myself and there’s no golf in the

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah, you’re not playing golf nowadays.

Jonathan Merel: definitely not. And it does, again, you know, I love doing it just like you said, I mean, you hit the nail on the head when you like doing it, you don’t even think, you don’t even think of it as work.

It’s just. You’re, it’s just what you do. [00:55:00] So I that I’ve plenty of time and you know, I assume that’ll even get even greater when my kids are off to college in a few years,

Jonathan Hawkins: So for the lawyers out there that maybe have just started their firms or maybe they are thinking about it. Any advice you would give them as they are embarking on the journey of starting their firm or trying to grow their firm.

Jonathan Merel: I think. Go for it. I mean, it’s such a scary proposition to do, but, you know, if you think. You were born to like have your own business and, you know, deal with all the stress that comes with it as well, as well as the success, hopefully, of course, but you know, if you’re cut out to be a business owner, it would just suck to look back on your career and say, you never did something and you can’t undo that.

So look, some businesses fail, many businesses fail, of course, but I mean, if you never try, you’ll never know. So I think, you know, those thinking about starting their own practice or their own business in any sense of course, [00:56:00] you know, get your ducks in a row and I say, go for it. And if you put your heart and soul into it and do a good job and, you know, have a good service and business and, you know, create a good reputation and surround yourself with good people, you’re going to be successful.

Jonathan Hawkins: I agree 100%. I think that’s right. And if you think you have it, you know, do you want to be on your deathbed and say, man, I should have tried. Cause even if you fall on your face, you can get another job. I mean, you can get another job.

Jonathan Merel: Exactly. Exactly.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, cool. So Jonathan, I mean, this has been great, man. I’ve been following you a while on LinkedIn. I’m glad to catch up. Like I said, man, I’m impressed with what you’ve done and what you’re doing. Thanks for coming on. So for anybody out there that. It wants to find you what’s the best way.

Jonathan Merel: Merel Family Law, M E R E L familylaw.com is our website. You can find me probably on LinkedIn too easily because I post a lot. But Jonathan, thanks for having me on. This was awesome. Your questions were great. You have a great format. I’ve watched your other episodes. You just got [00:57:00] something great going here.

Thanks for having

Jonathan Hawkins: cool. I appreciate it. And keep posting, man. There’s some good stuff

Jonathan Merel: I will.

Jonathan Hawkins: get it, get another uh, viral post, man. That was,

Jonathan Merel: I know, I’m gonna try. I’m gonna try. I like when people are sending the hate posts. You know you’ve done something

Jonathan Hawkins: it’s my inspiration and people need to go find that post just to see, you know, I can’t see the stats on the backend, but I can

Jonathan Merel: I have it pinned at one of the featured posts you can see. It’s got, yeah, it went

Jonathan Hawkins: I mean, it’s been reposted, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of times. I mean, it’s like crazy. Awesome. Yeah, that was really good. So, well, thanks for coming on, man.

Jonathan Merel: Yeah, thanks for having me, buddy. I look forward to keeping in touch and hopefully getting together.

Jonathan Hawkins: Sounds good.

​[00:58:00]