Jonathan Hawkins: [00:00:00] Welcome to Founding Partner Podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins. We’ve got a nice guest here today in Joe Ingram. He is a lawyer in Birmingham. And I believe, he’s got two main practice areas, and I’m interested in both of those.
Joe, why don’t you introduce yourself? Tell us about you, your firm, where you are, what you do, and then we’ll dive in.
Joseph Ingram: Jonathan, thank you for having me as a guest today. I enjoy your podcast and the time we’ve connected on the phone. I’m Joe Ingram. I’m an attorney in Birmingham, Alabama, and practicing law, going on 22, or 23 years. My practice areas are family law and criminal law. Under the Criminal Umbrella, we do state and federal defense.
And I also do a lot of board representation, pharmacy board, medical board, dental board, chiropractic board, nursing home administrator board. [00:01:00] Just about every licensing board in the state of Alabama, I’ve represented somebody in front of. And that’s pretty much our bread and butter now and has been over the last probably six years.
We decided to do just limited practice areas and focus on that. But in 22 years, I’ve done a lot of things, Jonathan.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So starting out, let’s get back real quick. After you got out of law school, did you go straight to your own firm or did you go to another firm?
Joseph Ingram: When I came out of law school, I went to work for a lawyer, briefly. There were some issues that were not good, let’s just say. And I knew, it was not the way to start my career. And unfortunately, three months into practicing law, I had to go hang out my own shingle, if you will.
And a very nice prominent man in Birmingham had office space, and he took [00:02:00] me under his wing. And God loves him. He’s still practicing, Jonathan. He’s 84 years old today. He doesn’t need a nickel. He still works 60 hours a week. So he would feed me cases because you come out of law school, you don’t have any cases, right?
Nobody knows who you are. This was back before internet and legal websites and all these things were when we used to advertise in the Yellow Pages, Jonathan, if you can remember that? And he would feed me cases. He called them baby cases. And the very first case he gave me, Jonathan, was an estate case.
Honest to goodness, it went all the way to the Alabama Supreme Court and became a reported decision for a simple estate, as he put it. And I had no idea I was about to try my first case, and it go all the way to the appellate level and became a reported decision.
Jonathan Hawkins: If that’s a baby case, I’d hate to see what a real case was like. It’s interesting, a couple of things you said there. I won’t ask for the details. I’ve talked to [00:03:00] other lawyers over the years that they find themselves at a firm and the situation’s not right for one reason or another, and they need to get out of there, pretty quickly.
But usually, they go to another firm. They don’t just start their own firm. And so you’re three months basically out of law school. You’re starting your own firm. What’s going through your mind? Why’d you start a firm? Why didn’t you try to find something else?
Joseph Ingram: I don’t really know. I knew I wanted to be a lawyer since I was about twelve years old. I always knew it. And now, my career path was a little different to get here. Maybe I was so dumb or green that I didn’t know what I didn’t know. And I just went and did it.
Now, I always had really good mentors. I was never afraid to go ask the right people questions to help me take care of the clients and their interest. I’ve never sacrificed a client for my ego. If I have to go get co-council, I always did that. I was never greedy about money, sharing [00:04:00] money or fees for the benefit of the client. Because that’s what we’re here for.
At the end of the day, it’s for the clients. Maybe I was just too stupid to not know what I didn’t know. And I just learned along the way.
Jonathan Hawkins: Sometimes, we need to be a little stupid to do what we’re doing here. Some of the things, if I knew, maybe I wouldn’t have done it.
So you said you, you took a different path. Tell me about that. What were you doing before law school?
Joseph Ingram: Yeah, I went to Birmingham School of Law, which is a night law school here in Birmingham. I’m not a traditional student. I was a juvenile delinquent in high school, bottom of my class. Did not go to college, out of high school, was not college material, Jonathan. I can tell the story now. It’s okay.
I shoveled sand in a pipe plant, seven days a week, 12 hours a day, for five years. And then one day, I realized, I’m ready to go to college. I went to college at 24, and everybody there was 18-year-old, [00:05:00] right out of high school kids. And I sat in the front of the room, never missed a class, and made straight A’s because I was paying for it. It was on my dime. And I was committed. And I finished my undergraduate degree in two years and nine months. Year round.
And at this point, now I’m like 26, 27, newly married. And when I say married up, I really married up in life. And I applied to Alabama Law School, and they said, Mr. Ingram, we’ll put you on a waiting list and we’ll let you know in the next year or so.
I said, waiting list? Wait for what? I’m an old man. I got to go. So that’s how I ended up at Birmingham. I did get accepted to Cumberland Law School here in Birmingham, which is a private school, part of Samford University.
At that time, now today, it’s no money. Back then, it was relevant dollars. I think Cumberland was 60,000 back in 2000, 1999. It was 60,000 for three [00:06:00] years. And I was like, I can’t afford it. I just got married. So I went to Birmingham School of Law, has a good reputation. Most of the judges here in Jefferson County, the 10th judicial circuit, all went to Birmingham School of Law.
Your law school doesn’t determine or define your career unless you’re headed for a federal clerkship or something like that.
Jonathan Hawkins: That’s interesting. Did you work? Were you working when you went to school?
Joseph Ingram: I worked five days a week, went to law school five nights a week.
Jonathan Hawkins: How tough was that? You were married. Did you have any kids?
Joseph Ingram: We didn’t have children. Holly and I laugh about it now. Maybe that’s why our marriage survived the first three years. I was never home. She didn’t see me. I was either at work or at school or in a library. That’s what I did for three years.
Jonathan Hawkins: That’s intense.
Let’s talk about when you got out, you’re on your own, and you’ve got this benefactor or mentor who’s feeding you some cases. So are you doing just a little bit of everything, whatever he hands you? I mean, some people call it door law or whatever, where you [00:07:00] just, whatever comes in?
Joseph Ingram: Yeah. Front door law. I did everything from divorce to civil cases. I had a friend that got me in the door to doing federal criminal cases and I really love that. That became such a passion for me.
For me, that’s the ultimate opportunity, standing in federal court, in front of a federal judge, making an argument. I love that. It doesn’t get any better than that. And I was such a nerd that I found a lot of research. I’ve done three police brutality, excessive force cases, one, one-in-one, a lost one, a settled one, we’ve won one.
Jonathan Hawkins: So is that on the plaintiff’s side?
Joseph Ingram: Yeah. I will never do another one of those cases again, because you put two or three years of your life in that case and a federal case, and the insurance companies, they’re billing it by the hour, they don’t care, they’re running the meter. And that case that I lost, man, [00:08:00] I probably had three years of my life in that and didn’t see a nickel. And I don’t have to do that anymore.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So do you still do divorce cases?
Joseph Ingram: I do a lot of divorce work. Yep.
Jonathan Hawkins: It seems to me, that divorce, I think criminal defense probably is, can be highly emotional. How do you handle that part of the practice?
Joseph Ingram: I think if you’ve practiced law long enough and done criminal law, family law, any of these areas that are high motion, and you deal with enough people, I’ve probably earned a degree in either social work or psychology. Because you have to learn to deal with people and you meet your clients where you find them.
Everybody brings their own baggage and their own life experiences to the table. And you have to meet them there. And so that’s how you deal with it.
And then the other thing is that I am very fortunate. I’ve been a lifelong runner. I run about 30 miles a week, still, now. That’s what [00:09:00] keeps the stress level down is, when I go run in the afternoon, that’s how I deal with life.
Jonathan Hawkins: A huge believer in exercise or something to take the stress out. I exercise every day. I imagine up there in Birmingham, you’re in the mountains. I remember I grew up in Mobile. And I was on cross country, and I wasn’t that great, but we ran and it’s coastal, we’re on the Gulf Coast, so it’s all flat.
So we’re running, it’s flat. And I remember going up there in the mountains, I was like, Oh my God, I barely finished that race. The team wasn’t scoring any points from me, but yeah, that’s a tough place to run.
Joseph Ingram: We have some heels and it’s good for you. When it comes time to run a race when you’ve done some heel training.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So if you go down to the coast, it’s just easy for you, I’m sure at this point.
Joseph Ingram: Yeah, next week, we’re going to Santa Rosa Beach, and it’s below sea level. It’s all flat, man. I’ll have easy rides, next week.
Jonathan Hawkins: Just on the topic of running, Atlanta’s got some hills too, and I don’t know if they still have it, but they have a marathon that they had for a while. I’ve never run a marathon, but people [00:10:00] say, do not choose Atlanta as your first marathon. Go to one of the coastal cities and do that, cause here it’s, shhh. Lots of hills.
Okay, you said you always wanted to be a lawyer early since you were 12. Does that mean you always wanted to be a trial lawyer or what did you have in mind when you said you wanted to be a lawyer?
Joseph Ingram: I don’t know that I knew the difference at 12. There was something innate or in my DNA that I knew that this is what I wanted to do as my life’s calling. In the seventh grade, we had to do a science project on a career. And mine was being an attorney. I had this little cardboard box that we painted gold. I still have it to this day. And we had little clay figures made of the judge and the lawyers at the table. And the courtroom is painted with the little rows and the benches. And I wrote this paper. I don’t have the paper anymore. God, I wish I had that today so I could read how stupid I was [00:11:00] at 12.
But I knew at 12 that this is what I wanted to do. I don’t know why. Now I have figured it out along the way. I really do believe this is my life’s calling. I really do. So I’m happy.
Jonathan Hawkins: That’s amazing. That’s cool. A lot of lawyers do it because they don’t know what else to do. I guess I’ll just go to law school. That’s cool that you do what you want to do. And it’s cool that you still love it. That’s the other thing, you see a lot of these lawyers that they’re out there, but they’re miserable. They don’t like it for whatever reason. Maybe it’s the way they’ve designed their firm or their work life, or I don’t know. But that’s good that you still like it.
So you do a lot of criminal, you do a lot of divorce work. What’s a normal day like for you?
Some attorneys are just basically going to court, courthouse to courthouse all throughout the day. Are you in court all the time? Are you in the office or is it a mix?
Joseph Ingram: Since COVID’s over, thank goodness, we’re back in court a lot, a couple of days a week. My days usually start at seven, and my days go about 10 at [00:12:00] night. And a good friend that we both know, not gonna say his last name, Marco. He laughs about my hours. But I told him, I said, do you think I would do this if I really didn’t enjoy it? Come on. I run in the afternoon. I go eat my dinner and then shower and I come back. My office is 1. 5 miles from my house, which is really convenient. And I’ll sit here to 10 and work and then I go home.
Jonathan Hawkins: What’s your day like? How do you balance the legal work with just the admin stuff of operations of your firm?
Joseph Ingram: I’ve been a solo practitioner, most of my life. I’ve done a majority of my work. I have been in situations in different offices where we shared a secretary or paralegal, things like that. Here, we have a receptionist that we all have, which is really nice. Very fortunate, my wife was a teacher for 14 years. Quit teaching. She went back and got a degree as a certified paralegal. [00:13:00] The goal always was for her to work for me.
But in the early days, when I didn’t make any money, and I still don’t make any money if the IRS is listening. That’s a joke, Jonathan. We just couldn’t afford for her to work for me. And she went to what we call a big law firm, and made really good money, really big hours. Like 80-hour weeks, where you have to churn out 1600 hours a year bill, all that kind of crap.
And in the last year or two, business has been really strong for us. And she said, Hey, it’s time for me to help you. And so in July, Holly retired. And she is my paralegal now. And it has really changed my life and my desk. It’s so much cleaner. And she runs the admin, and takes care of the files, and the organization index and all that stuff.
Jonathan Hawkins: So how was that bringing her in? It sounds like it’s really good now. I [00:14:00] know a lot of people who work with their wives or spouses, both sides. And then I know a lot of people said, I could never do that. I think, Marco is one of those people. Seems like I’ve heard him say that.
But yeah, so it obviously it works for you. She’s been there a couple of years. How was that transition? Was it seamless? Was it easy?
Joseph Ingram: It was very difficult. And we still have times that separating work from home is really hard. We have a rule that we don’t discuss in my office after 6 PM. That’s just the rule. Now up until six, we can talk about it. After six, it’s not fair to her, it’s not fair to the home life. But it’s great.
She’s invested because the better I do, the better we do. How much more motivated can somebody be than that, than to have your life partner with you every day, you’re fortunate. And the greatest thing now is when we decided to take a vacation, guess what? We just close the [00:15:00] door and take a vacation. We don’t have to coordinate schedules. We’re going to take off this year, the whole week of Thanksgiving, she’s never been able to do that. We’re going to take two weeks at Christmas, travel, never been able to do that. So it does have some advantages, being able to work together.
Jonathan Hawkins: And the trust factor, I don’t think you’d ever be able to find an employee that you trust the same and there’s no way.
Joseph Ingram: Nope. Yep. Its loyalty factor is, number one, I don’t have to worry about anything here.
Jonathan Hawkins: And I do like that too. Another benefit, like you said, is the incentives are our aligned, you’re both want the same thing out of the business, I would think, in terms of what it can provide for you on the home side.
Joseph Ingram: Absolutely. And I told her, I said, you have a direct incentive and how well we do. It’s not about what I pay her. She’s helping pull the wagon for the benefit of the wagon, if you will. The better I do, the better we do. You just can’t have a better employee like that.
And it’s a really good thing. Not [00:16:00] everybody can do it, but it works for us. It really does.
Jonathan Hawkins: So you said, you’ve been a solo for most of your career. Have you ever had any attorneys that work for you or with you?
Joseph Ingram: Yeah, I was in a brief relationship with two of my friends. Didn’t last long. The relationship changed. They got married, six weeks after we became a partnership. And that changes dynamics. If two out of the three are married, I’m not going home with them. And that changed the money game.
And after that experience, I will never put my name on a letterhead with anybody again, ever.
Jonathan Hawkins: It’s interesting. I tell the story or I make this comparison. Going into a partnership with a friend, it can work. And I know folks have made it work. It’s done incredible. But it’s going to get an apartment or a place with a friend in college or whenever, you’re going in as best friends, and then you actually live with each other, and see the mess, and somebody is not pulling their weight, and [00:17:00] clean in and whatever it is. And then when that lease is up, you go your separate ways. And y’all aren’t friends anymore, or at least, you may be cordial, but you’re not really hanging out like you used to. It sounds like a great, in theory, to go into partnership with a really good friend. Sometimes, maybe it’s better not to.
Joseph Ingram: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: But yeah, have you ever thought about not going into partnership again, but maybe say, hey, bring it on some attorney help or whatever? Have you done that or thought about that?
Joseph Ingram: Good question. We have a position out right now for an associate. And I’ve decided instead of hiring one, we’re going to go ahead and hire two. Because of the friends we know between us. And you know what I’m talking about. Chances are, maybe one of them doesn’t work out the first couple of go-arounds, and I figured I might as well bite the bullet and take two.
If one doesn’t work out, then I’m okay, right? And so, we’re gonna try to take two here. Bar results come out in about three [00:18:00] weeks. So we’re hoping to hire two this year.
Jonathan Hawkins: So what made you decide to do this? What was it that said, all right, I’ve been a solo for a long time. Now, it’s time, I’m going to start hiring people.
Joseph Ingram: We’ve had this conversation off the year. For a long time, I just wanted to practice law and try to be a good lawyer in the courtroom. Not so much did I ever think about the business of a law practice. I have seen people in the Birmingham market do this and ask, how do they do that? I did never really sit in. Sometimes, you have to step back and see the forest for the trees, if you will.
You know what I’m saying? And I never did that. And about two years ago, I don’t know what happened. Maybe I got hit in the head, maybe I was out running, some of the ideas came to me. And I started doing a lot of research. You know what I’m talking about. We’ve talked on the phone. We have some of the same colleagues around the country we talked to. Then I [00:19:00] joined this group called Maximum Guild. You familiar with them? Marco’s in that.
We’re having a seminar in Vegas in first week in November. And they have a really good group on Facebook. They share everything.
Jonathan Hawkins: Is this the maximum lawyer folks?
Joseph Ingram: Maximum, yeah. And it’s so wonderful, the people that’ll help you if you ask. Now, you’re not going to get that kind of help from your competition in your market, I don’t think. But somebody in another state that has the same issue will share everything with you. And that’s great because that’s what we’re here for, is to help each other. And that one gentleman we’ve talked about has been wonderful to me. I can’t help but sing his praises. And you have been nothing but generous with your time on the phone and emails with me, some of the conversations we’ve had.
Jonathan Hawkins: It’s completely different nowadays than I think, even 10 years ago. And I started my firm six years [00:20:00] ago, but it’s never been easier to start a firm, in my opinion. You got internet, you got a bar license, and then you go get clients, and then you can do it.
But then also, back in the day, there was no really resource out there. There’s that, what is the old Foonberg or whatever book that everybody talks about? But that was it. And nowadays, there’s resources all over the place. And like you said, there’s groups like a maximum lawyer and others, that everybody’s helping each other and you can just really get all of this knowledge.
I think now that the issue, at least sometimes I feel like, there’s too much out there and you’re like, I don’t know what to listen to. There’s just too much to try to get in there. And you got to figure out how to distill it or figure out what might not work for you that works for others or vice versa.
So, the other thing that you said, all right, we’re going to start hiring. Another thing that I truly believe is, growth of a law firm, I guess it can happen accidentally, but I think really, you got to decide to do it. It’s a decision because [00:21:00] there are risks involved and you got to do things to make it happen. And so, it sounds like you decided.
Joseph Ingram: I did. Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: And you’re in these groups, what was it that led you to say, all right, I’m going to do it now? I’m going to take the risk and not just hire one, but hire two. Most lawyers are scared to even hire one person and you’re like, all right, I’m doing two.
Joseph Ingram: The conversation you and I had about three or four weeks ago, I hope I don’t give too much away. If I do, I apologize. We had this conversation and you said, go get somebody now. And I realized, it’s not as easy as well think to go get somebody, talent. And about two weeks ago, I just came to the point. I told Holly, I said, screw it. We’re gonna go get to now. One may not work. And we’re just gonna go all in.
And every time, if I’m successful, I’m going to double down and go for three, and do it that way. [00:22:00] And take some risk.
One of my favorite YouTube videos is by George Clooney, and Jonathan, and go Google it. And he says, anybody that has ever tried something and failed, it’s okay. But if you don’t try, you’re going to look back at 65 and have regret and say, I could have done that. I just was too afraid to get off the sidelines. I’m not going to let fear of failure let me keep from trying.
Jonathan Hawkins: I’m with you 100%. For me, I think the fear of regret of not trying is something that drives me. Exactly what you said, I don’t want to be on my deathbed and say, Man, I should have tried. Now, if I try and fail, I can at least say, hey, I tried. But if I didn’t try, I would not be able to feel like I had a successful life, so to speak.
But yeah, the other thing I have found both in my own firm and even in some of the firms I was in before, it’s hard to find [00:23:00] people. It’s hard to keep people. And it takes usually way longer than you think. The timing is never quite aligned, it seems to. I’ve come to this sort of mentality now that it’s, I call it always be recruiting.
So I’m always out there, talking to folks, dropping lines in the water, cause you just never know when the orbits are going to align and then it’s going to work. So but you got to just constantly putting out there because if you wait till you absolutely need to hire or whatever, it’s almost too late at that point because takes longer than you think, and maybe you get the wrong person in there.
Joseph Ingram: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: So how long have you been out there looking?
Joseph Ingram: We just started about a month ago and I’m probably a year too late. We had this conversation. I am overwhelmed. I’m very blessed with work. But I’m almost overwhelmed. And now, it’s a need. I’m probably a year too late.
Jonathan Hawkins: It’s a good problem to be busy, better than not [00:24:00] being busy, because that’s the other fear that I think a lot of people have, but I like, I’m scared. I won’t have enough work for that person or I won’t be able to afford them. So at least, you’ve got enough.
So let that lead to maybe my next question. So how do you get your clients? As lawyers, that’s a question a lot of younger lawyers have. How do I get clients? Everybody says you gotta go get them. Lots of different ways to do it. Lots of things work. So what is it that works for you and what do you do?
Joseph Ingram: Probably, 50% of our marketing or advertising comes from Google LSA advertising. A lot of people like it. A lot of people don’t like it. It works well for us. We have a good margin of at least 5-1, and maybe up to 8-1 return on our investment, in real dollars, every month.
I’m very comfortable with that. We do enough, my law clerk does enough blog, writing on legal [00:25:00] issues that I picked up a case today, Jonathan, I’ll share with you off the air. It’s related to the new Alabama Cannabis Commission to regulate the sale of cannabis in the state of Alabama. We wrote some fantastic articles on that issue this summer, and that’s how I got the case today.
As they said, Mr Ingram, we went and read your research and we came to hire you. So blog writing on issues and subjects really matters to Google to get picked up for cases. And then I’ve done this over 20 years. We get repeat business, we get referrals, and those things.
Jonathan Hawkins: So do you have a system of staying in touch with your old clients?
Joseph Ingram: No, I’m bad at that, but we have a new law system that is going to be better at that for us. That’s some of the things Holly brought to the table, is from big law firm things that she [00:26:00] saw and said, Joe, you need to implement some processes and things like that. And those will pay off in the next five years.
I have been the world’s worst about keeping up with past clients. Other than those that I’ve had personal relationships with, I’ve had some clients I represented back in the beginning. And honest to goodness, they called me once a year just to say, Merry Christmas, Joe, how are you? I love that.
I’ve kept up with their family, I love those relationships. The older you get, you realize, it’s not about the money, it’s about the people. It’s always about the people.
Jonathan Hawkins: That’s really the fun part. And they’ve done all the studies, the people that have the deep relationships are the ones that live longer. So you mentioned the Cannabis Committee or whatever. I’m curious about that. What’s Alabama thinking there? What are they exploring? Is it medical? Is it full-on legalization? What’s going on over there?
Joseph Ingram: Well, Jonathan, you’re next door in Georgia. We’ve talked about my southern accent, please forgive [00:27:00] me. Alabama is always behind on everything. There’s only one state, Jonathan, worse than Alabama, which is Mississippi. You know that, right?
Jonathan Hawkins: Let me interrupt, real quick. So my wife’s from Mississippi, I grew up in Alabama, and we had all these Mississippi jokes growing up. Then I moved to Georgia for college. It was all the same jokes, but they were Alabama jokes instead.
Joseph Ingram: It’s true. But our Mississippi has a lottery now. Alabama still can’t get a lottery. But we’re probably the last state to legalize selling medical marijuana. And Jonathan, honest to goodness, the commission has been set up for three and a half years. We are still not selling medical marijuana yet.
Because everybody keeps going to court, fighting over the licenses to sell it.
Jonathan Hawkins: That’s right.
Joseph Ingram: Yeah. So we’re almost four years in, nobody’s made a dollar yet. I’m serious. It’s gonna be some good litigation. This is gonna be fun.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Getting those [00:28:00] licenses, that’s the politics. Those are gonna be worth a lot, whoever gets them. And then the question is, how many do they hand out or sell or whatever, and who gets them, etc. I think it is inevitable that it’s just going to be legal everywhere.
I wonder how will that affect your criminal practice.
Joseph Ingram: I think there’s always gonna be drug cases because fentanyl is so dangerous and so deadly. It’s scary how dangerous it is. Not marijuana, but the other drugs are really or what’s scary. And I’m saying this as a person, as a citizen, not as a defense lawyer. Everybody can do what they want to do in their personal life.
I’m sorry, marijuana is just a gateway to further substances. I really believe that. You get high long enough. You get used to the high, then you need to do something else to feel that next adrenaline rush, so you go to the next level. And you see this in cities [00:29:00] like, what is it? Seattle, up in Portland that full on drugs, San Francisco. It’s really sad. They have just drug addicts out in the street with needles in their horn. And we’ve done it to ourselves as a society. That’s the bad part.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, that fentanyl stuff is really scary. Okay, so moving on a little bit. Another thing you do maybe to get clients, maybe not, is you have a podcast too, right? So tell me about your podcast and why you start it. And what do you want to do with it?
Joseph Ingram: The podcast was just invented one night out of boredom. I thought I’m gonna go do this. I’m a nerd, I don’t have much of a social life, and we don’t have children. And I use Alitu for my podcast. I know, the quality of your production is much better than mine.
But I set up a podcast in five days from not knowing anything about it. And we talked to people around the country, which we’d like to talk to lawyers, we’d like to talk to business people, I had [00:30:00] a great novelist on this summer. That was a DHR worker that wrote a crime fiction book, a wonderful author, Jonathan. Great book about this child that was in the basement and starved to death. And DHR had to come in and rescue the child.
And I just like talking to people. It’s fun. I did my podcast last night. And it’s the greatest hour of the week for me that I love. You look forward to this, don’t you? Every right?
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, this is
Joseph Ingram: Yeah. It’s entertainment because lawyers, we’d like to talk to people.
Jonathan Hawkins: So what’s the name of it? How would people find it?
Joseph Ingram: My podcast is Real Law Alabama or JoeIngramLaw.com.
Jonathan Hawkins: Nice. So everybody, go check it out, go subscribe.
Joseph Ingram: Please. Yes. I’m not like you, Jonathan.
Jonathan Hawkins: And if you’re interested in being a guest, maybe they can reach out to you.
Joseph Ingram: Absolutely. We love guests. Because you have to go ask for the interview through LinkedIn. Some people will do it, some people don’t want to do it, but you have to [00:31:00] ask. And I don’t mind asking. I’ve had some wonderful guests this summer from Indiana and Utah and all over the country. Man, there’s some brilliant people out there that we get to spend 45 minutes with and pick their brain. And I’ll walk away and I’ve learned more from it than I ever wanted. And do you have that same experience?
Jonathan Hawkins: I do. You mentioned some people will do it, some people won’t. That’s the thing that always amazed me. If anybody asked me to be on a podcast, I’d say, yeah, I want to do it. And so, I went into it, thinking that if I asked, of course, they’d say yes.
But occasionally, sometimes they say no, sometimes they don’t respond. So it’s interesting that you’ve had a similar experience because it’s a low investment. It’s just maybe an hour of somebody’s time, and they might learn something. They might have some fun.
Joseph Ingram: Do you ever have guests that you can tell that there’s no chemistry or they don’t want to do it? And you know that you need to get out of it. I’ve had [00:32:00] those, and then you have those that you could just go on forever with, right?
Jonathan Hawkins: I guess some of you have more chemistry than others, but I have not had any yet. Where I’m just like, Oh God, get me out of here. Now, I’ve had some lunches like that.
Earlier in my career, I had a coach or mentor that encouraged me to get out from behind my desk and go have lunch with lawyers, and breakfast and all the time, just get out there and meet with people. And the way he said, he’s like, you’re gonna kiss some frogs. There’s gonna be some out there that are duds, and boy, that happened. There’s somewhere you’re just like five minutes in, you’re like, oh God, we haven’t even ordered the food yet, I gotta stay here.
And maybe coffee’s a little bit better in that regard because it’s a little shorter and you can get out of there. But on the podcast, I’ve been lucky so far. We’ll see. You do it long enough, maybe.
Joseph Ingram: You do a great job and you have a great production, so it’s great.
Jonathan Hawkins: I appreciate it. So let’s turn back to your practice and you’ve been at it now for quite a while. Looking back, is there anything that you wish you would have done [00:33:00] sooner in your law practice that you’re doing now?
Joseph Ingram: I wish I would have made the decisions that I’m about to make about 10 years ago. But I let fear rule my world to my shame. But I don’t do that anymore. I would rather fail and hold my head up high, and say, Man, we gave it a good shot, just didn’t work. But I’ve decided, we’re gonna go try to do this thing.
And I think we’re gonna be okay. However, it comes out, we’re still a winner, right? We’re in the greatest country on the earth. We’ve got all the advantages in the world. We’re very fortunate people. So how bad can the loss really be?
Jonathan Hawkins: That’s a good attitude and I’m with you. So let me ask you the flip side of that question. Is there anything that you wish you had not done in your law practice?
Joseph Ingram: Oh yeah, a lot of things. I’ve learned a lot of lessons being a street lawyer for 22 years. I was in a courtroom yesterday with somebody. And [00:34:00] this lawyer just didn’t know when to shut up in front of the judge. And I thought, when you’re ahead, just shut up and sit down. You’re winning.
And I turned and looked at a friend of mine, he’s much older, he’s about to retire, he’s 71, and we joked when we walked out, he said, sometimes you just shut up and sit down. You won. Why make the judge mad? You got what you wanted, so sit down. You don’t have to beat the person up.
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. We’ve talked a little bit about this, but as you are entering this new phase of your law practice, what are some of your go-to resources for trying to figure things out? Because we’re all out here just trying to figure it out, every day.
Joseph Ingram: You mentioned earlier, there is an unbelievable amount of resources and authors, and everybody is an expert on scaling. I’ve talked to enough people in the last year that people have tried to sell me the moon. And everybody’s telling you, they’re going to get you to seven [00:35:00] figures in 18 and 24 and 36 months. And I think, you just have to have a gut instinct about who you listen to, at the end of the day.
I’ve talked to a lot of people. I don’t make any decisions really fast. I come back, I take notes, and my gut tells me what to do. Marco is my voice of reasoning. I called him this week on an issue. And man, he is so spot on. And he is so complimentary of his time. I’ve told you this, time is the greatest commodity on earth. You can’t replicate it.
If somebody will give you their time, that is gold. And he will share anything with you. He’s not hiding the secrets, he’ll tell you. So I’ve got a really close circle of people that I really trust about some big decisions I’ve got to make.
Jonathan Hawkins: And so that maybe leads to the next question too. You’re embarking on this new path, I’ll call it, maybe that’s wrong, but as you’re looking ahead, what’s [00:36:00] your vision, what is it that you see down the road? What is it you’re trying to build that have you thought that through?
Joseph Ingram: My vision and some of our other contemporaries are doing is not what I want to do at this stage of my life. I’m 53. Maybe four or five associates would be a good number for me, max. I don’t want to be hands-off.
Met a nice lady out of Colorado, a lawyer, and she said, I haven’t been in a courtroom in three years. That would make me happy. I still like going to the courthouse door. There is an adrenaline rush for me when I get to go stand in front of the judge. What an honor, and privilege, man. How fortunate we are, we get that experience. And it’s not a right, it’s a privilege that we work for, to represent somebody.
Somebody paid me money to help them solve their problem. That’s an awesome responsibility. And I still get a [00:37:00] kick out of it. So I don’t want to be removed. No.
Jonathan Hawkins: Like you said, there’s all these people telling you to scale. And scaling comes with all sorts of issues, all sorts of other problems. It’s not necessarily, some panacea to whatever. So it’s not for everybody, but everybody’s telling you, you got to do it. The other thing, a lot of people tell you to do is, you got to become the CEO, you got to stop practicing.
And for some people, that’s what they want, that’s perfect. But for others, sounds like you, I know plenty number of attorneys, that they’re in their 70s and they want nothing else, but to go try cases, still. They’ve been incredibly successful. They don’t have to work ever again. But they still this thrill, whatever it is, they got to do it.
And I’ve had some tell me, I’m gonna do it till they force me out of there. They’re gonna have to wheel me out of that courtroom. And I think, it’s crazy, but it’s right for them. And that’s the key. I think it’s just like, you got to do what’s right for you.
Don’t do what everybody’s telling you to do, but do what’s right for you. So that’s good. And if going to trial and going to court is what’s for you, [00:38:00] then you do it.
Joseph Ingram: Yeah.
Jonathan Hawkins: So, let me ask this. You’ve known since you’re 12 that you wanted to be a lawyer. You’ve been doing it now for 20-something years. But if for some reason, somebody came to you said, you can’t practice law anymore. What would you be doing, instead?
Joseph Ingram: You’re gonna laugh. Would probably be a professional runner for money, for organizations, run a charitable organization to raise money. The happiest I am every day is when I’m running. I don’t use radio ear pods. I don’t like to talk to people when I run. Some guys in my group, they want to carry on a conversation with me. I’m like, guys, this is my time. And it’s between the ears is all this is about.
I’m so past the physical part of running, Jonathan. I’m 53. I’m very blessed, physically healthy. I ran eight miles yesterday afternoon. And man, my heart rate is back to normal within six [00:39:00] minutes of stopping.
That’s what I live for, is being on the street.
Jonathan Hawkins: I can’t run so much anymore. I got a lower back issue that probably need to get checked out. But I used to run quite a bit. I liked running long distance. And the thing I really liked about it was the mind games that would go on, because I’m tired, and I want to stop. And I’m like, you got to go just a little bit longer. And then your mind is this fight. It’s a battle. It’s like a battle for willpower. And you’re just trying to go a little bit farther without stopping. And just go a little bit faster than you did the time before. And I love that.
When I actually was able to do it. If I quit, they’re like, oh man, that’s terrible. But yeah, I used to love running a lot. So I get it. I can’t say, I was ever really that great at it or very fast. That’s the other good thing. It’s really all about yourself, right?
Joseph Ingram: Yeah, it is.
Jonathan Hawkins: Okay, if I’m a lawyer out there, and I’m thinking about starting my firm, any advice that you have for those folks out there?
Joseph Ingram: I don’t know that I’m the person to answer this question. [00:40:00] That’s a really tough question. I would hope that you have enough knowledge how to practice law before you try to go be a venture capitalist.
Have you heard about these states where they’re going to let people own law firms that aren’t lawyers? Have you heard about this out in California?
Jonathan Hawkins: Arizona’s got it now, for sure. I know California was looking at it, but they hadn’t done it yet. But yeah, that’s big. I’m hearing a lot about it.
Joseph Ingram: That concerns me. Does it concern you?
Jonathan Hawkins: I can see both sides. If you’re in a position to sell, then, yeah, that might be something you’re interested in. But then, you look at maybe like the medical industry who opened up a while back and the doctors, some loved it, many of them didn’t. You People say it was a bad thing. So I don’t really know.
Even you look at the UK and Australia, they have publicly traded law firms that are on a stock exchange.
Joseph Ingram: Did they? Really?
Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.
Joseph Ingram: Okay.
Jonathan Hawkins: They’ve been doing it for at least a decade, maybe longer. And the world hasn’t ended [00:41:00] over there, so people are scared to change. I get it. And there’s probably gonna be some bad stuff that happens if and when it spreads everywhere. But overall, I just don’t know yet, is the bottom line. I can see both sides.
Joseph Ingram: Yeah. My concern is, and I know with the big state game of big plaintiff injury. You’re a gambler, in a sense. And you know what I’m talking about. Some of these big fish on TV. But you shouldn’t be gambling with people’s lives and they have serious trauma cases and debilitating cases, things like that.
Lawyers need to make those decisions, not gamblers. That’s what concerns me. I had a case today that I had to run to court on this morning. And thankfully, I had a very good lawyer on the other side. We’re able to sit down and work out this case because we know what is reasonable. So that we don’t cost these people money in litigation that they can’t [00:42:00] afford. And we know what the judge is going to do.
And I think we have a higher calling to do what’s right and be good stewards of our client’s money for them, and say, Hey, the judge is not going to do that. You can go have your day in court. And there are those people that want their day in court, right? And it doesn’t matter what you tell them, they want to be heard, they want to have their say. But when you have two really good lawyers, and they’re able to resolve the issues, I think, there’s a lot of positive results that come from them.
Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I certainly agree with the sentiment that non-lawyer owners should not be able to come in and tell the lawyers how to lawyer, and how to recommend things and advise their clients. I absolutely a hundred percent believe that, no matter what. Whether they open it up or not, that should never change. So agree with you on that.
All right, we’ve come to the end here. I want to thank you for coming on here and sharing your story. It’s been fun. So, if people out there want to find you, what’s the best way to get in touch with you? [00:43:00]
Joseph Ingram: JoeIngramLaw.com
And we’ll be glad to help people, and it has been such a pleasure to spend an hour with you. Man, you’re such a nice man. Thank you, Jonathan.
Jonathan Hawkins: I appreciate it. It’s been fun.
Joseph Ingram: Alright, I hope I wasn’t too boring of a guest.
Jonathan Hawkins: Nah, man. No, it’s good.
Joseph Ingram: Alright.
