The Delicious Grind: Sonia Lakhany on Trademark Law and Entrepreneurial Success

[00:00:00] Sonia Lakhany: So I literally taught myself trademark law slash started reaching out to mentors and trying to create relationships and learn the practice area. I remember Paying a couple of attorneys to sit next to them while they work and file trademarks So I could just watch and take notes And I mean, I really stitched together my own education made a ton of mistakes by the third position.

[00:00:18] Sonia Lakhany: It was an ip position So all that experience and that was really part of the timeframe, if anyone’s graduated around that timeframe, you know, the chances are you got used to kind of creating your own brand in an interview to say, okay, I know I don’t technically have trademark experience, but I do, cause I have filed all these marks, just not at a trademark law firm.

[00:00:38] Sonia Lakhany: And so I think that kind of made me stand out in a sense like, well, you really want to do this. And I’m like, you don’t understand. I don’t want to be a lawyer unless I can do, I can’t be a lawyer unless I do this practice area. Cause I hate everything else.

[00:00:49] ​[00:01:00]

[00:01:18] Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to family partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins excited about today’s guest today. We’ve got Sonia Lakhani, who is a trademark lawyer, but she’s also got a pretty cool, I won’t even call it a side business, but it is a I’ll call it a legal educational business, but I’ll let her describe it the way she wants to describe it.

[00:01:38] Jonathan Hawkins: But Sonia, why don’t you tell us about you? Give us a quick background. Tell us about your firm. You know, is it what you do? How many folks you have helping you? That kind of thing.

[00:01:47] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah, sure. Well, thank you for having me. You guys Jonathan and I go way back and I’m honored to be included on the podcast, so thank you for having me. So as he mentioned, I am a trademark attorney. I have my own law practice. I’ve had my firm for [00:02:00] a little nine and a half years of the 14 I’ve been practicing And my second venture is 4l education.

[00:02:06] Sonia Lakhany: So it’s my modern take on attorney education So the 4l being you know The year we wish we would have had that would have been really nice to learn how to practice law in law school but in lieu of that we we developed 4l, a few years ago and It’s been going strong ever since so on the law firm side.

[00:02:24] Sonia Lakhany: I still do practice You trademarks and exclusively trademarks. No litigation, only filing and prosecution. And on 4L, we focus on trademark education for attorneys and law students and paralegals who may be interested. But we are looking to expand subject areas soon enough as well.

[00:02:42] Jonathan Hawkins: Oh, that’s cool. And I want to explore that a little bit. You know, some people say you don’t need third, your third year law school. So, 4L should replace. Well, yeah, exactly. Well, cool. So, so take us way back. You know, the journey to become a lawyer. What got you there?

[00:02:58] Sonia Lakhany: This is a [00:03:00] semi known fact now at this point, but my mom is actually gonna force me to go to law school. It’s a funny story. I never wanted to, I hated every minute of it actually. And the circuit, the full circle moment is that. I would ditch class all the time. I would never go. I never wanted to be.

[00:03:14] Sonia Lakhany: I hated reading. I was like, why am I here? I hate this. But in our culture, you know, I grew up Middle Eastern and in our culture, you have a couple of choices when it comes to career paths and medicine was not going to happen. And so you get lawyer, doctor, you know, something coding engineers, STEM also was not going to happen.

[00:03:30] Sonia Lakhany: And so. When I would look at my schedule and try to arrange it for the next semester, I would always try to build in four day weekends, like really be in law school as minimally as possible. And so I found a trademark class. It fit the last window I needed so that I could have four day weekends. And lo and behold, I went the first day and Sarah Stadler was my instructor.

[00:03:49] Sonia Lakhany: She was she’s an adjunct professor also practicing law. And she just made me fall in love with the practice area. And it was the only class, not only did I never miss, I sat front row center, I was early and [00:04:00] I got an A plus on the final. Because I just was like, it made sense to me and it clicked and it was the only class I didn’t hate.

[00:04:06] Sonia Lakhany: And I said, you know what, if I have to do this, I’m just going to do trademarks. And I had no clue about the lifestyle of it or what it would involve. I had no clue how to file a trademark, right? We just learned theories and case law and stuff. And it was just seemed fascinating. So I took it and ran with it.

[00:04:20] Sonia Lakhany: And here we are 14 years later. Silence.

[00:04:40] Jonathan Hawkins: happened oh eight or so.

[00:04:41] Jonathan Hawkins: And then the fallout lasted two to three years. And I remember I remember getting calls and. resumes from the graduates of 2010 and it was like brutal. I mean, it was, it might be at least in our lifetime the worst [00:05:00] year ever to graduate in terms of jobs out there. What was it like for you on that end of it?

[00:05:07] Sonia Lakhany: You are not wrong. It was horrific. I think all of us were scrambling and you know, I went to Emory for law school. I had an amazing experience with the law school itself. And I loved my classmates, but we all had the same experience, which was, we were all just scrambling, trying to find jobs. And now this is a fairly well known story, but my first job out of Emory as a licensed barred attorney was 17 an hour answering phones.

[00:05:28] Sonia Lakhany: Cause it at a law firm, but they didn’t have an opening for, An associate, but it was like a way to be at a law firm and not sit around and like twiddle your thumbs all day. Cause I think when you graduate and finish the bar. There’s a little gray area of, okay, I want a job search, but I understand that I don’t have a bar here to offer.

[00:05:45] Sonia Lakhany: So it’s a little bit of like a less freak out period, but once you’re licensed and you’re sworn in, and if you still don’t have a good job or a job at all, that’s where it starts really eating at your confidence where you’re like, wow, is my life over? Like, did I do all of this for nothing? And so I was really [00:06:00] starting to panic and it was a way to be at a law firm without actually being, you know, and it was a med mal firm.

[00:06:06] Sonia Lakhany: It was awful. It was absolutely awful, but we made it work. And along the way, like I said, you know, I knew I wanted to practice trademarks. I didn’t know what that would entail. I didn’t know how to learn the practice area. So you’re starting to see the little specs that eventually developed into four L, which was, you know, you create things.

[00:06:22] Sonia Lakhany: Typically entrepreneurs create things because they don’t exist already. And so, I was scrambling trying to figure out, you know, I had this sort of day job thing, but I had a Twitter going, which was Lady Lanham ESQ. The Lanham Act is the Federal Trademark Protection Act. So, you know, I took that from there.

[00:06:38] Sonia Lakhany: So I was always immersing myself. And so, one, that first position led to another, a proper associate position. Also not practicing trademarks, but the second one, at least it was, okay, well if you want to do it, you’re on your own. Like you have to bring in the business and you also have to execute the services.

[00:06:54] Sonia Lakhany: So I was like, Oh, okay, I guess. So I literally taught myself trademark law slash [00:07:00] started reaching out to mentors and trying to create relationships and learn the practice area. I remember Paying a couple of attorneys to sit next to them while they work and file trademarks So I could just watch and take notes And I mean, I really stitched together my own education made a ton of mistakes by the third position.

[00:07:15] Sonia Lakhany: It was an ip position So all that experience and that was really part of the timeframe, if anyone’s graduated around that timeframe, you know, the chances are you got used to kind of creating your own brand in an interview to say, okay, I know I don’t technically have trademark experience, but I do, cause I have filed all these marks, just not at a trademark law firm.

[00:07:35] Sonia Lakhany: And so I think that kind of made me stand out in a sense like, well, you really want to do this. And I’m like, you don’t understand. I don’t want to be a lawyer unless I can do, I can’t be a lawyer unless I do this practice area. Cause I hate everything else. So. That’s where we started and so that position then led to another one and that was my last one So it was four jobs in four years famously [00:08:00] Yeah,

[00:08:01] Jonathan Hawkins: your classmates you know, took all that initiative. I mean, you know, you busted your ass you actually paid lawyers to sort of teach you, you know, most people after they’re done paying for law school, they’re like, they don’t invest in themselves ever again, a lot of folks.

[00:08:14] Jonathan Hawkins: So that wasn’t pretty impressive. So the firm that you said that they said, You could do it, but you got to go get it and you got to do it yourself. What kind of firm was that? And were you having to do that legal job and then sort of the trademark stuff on top? How did that work?

[00:08:28] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah, it was a general practice firm, small firm, maybe about four or five lawyers if I recall. It was, we used to joke that it was door log because you just took anything that came through the door. And none of those things were trademarks and I remember the partner was like, I don’t even like mess with it.

[00:08:44] Sonia Lakhany: I don’t have any idea. And it was more like PI centered. And sort of more like B to C services, right? Versus B2B services. So I was the one that kind of introduced that aspect. I’m like, you’re missing out on a whole revenue stream because the people that you represent in a car accident, what if they have a business?

[00:08:59] Sonia Lakhany: And then what if [00:09:00] you could serve those business needs as well? Right? So it was something that I don’t think they loved the idea because it was just so new and so exciting. So I came in guns blazing and this firm that had been around for long before I’d been practicing law with all these new ideas, but that was kind of a pattern is that I’ve always just had these crazy lofty ideas to other people.

[00:09:19] Sonia Lakhany: But in my mind, they make sense. And. Once I started to trust myself over time that you, your hunches are right. You just have to find the right environment to cultivate those. And so, yes, I did have to do my day job, which was heavily in PI and, you know, random B2C services. So I was learning, I think I did a DUI hearing ones and this, I was like all over the place.

[00:09:42] Sonia Lakhany: And then at night and on the weekends, I would research slash, you know, try and find clients and then also try to. Learn how, I mean, it was, you’re learning the practice. So you’re finding the clients and then executing the legal services. Any one of those would be able to enough to take someone out.

[00:09:57] Sonia Lakhany: I was doing all of it. And I don’t know why [00:10:00] I

[00:10:00] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, it sounds like the firm didn’t, the firm didn’t know how to handle you. It sounds like,

[00:10:05] Sonia Lakhany: they thought it was nuts, but they were like, wow, you’re, but you’re bringing in revenue. They’re like, this kid’s crazy. I’m like, I just give me, just trust me. Give me a second. You know? So

[00:10:15] Jonathan Hawkins: so, so were they, so you were getting paid by that firm while you were developing, you were learning how to get clients, service clients, all that stuff. Right. So they were paying you at least. Right.

[00:10:24] Sonia Lakhany: yes, I got a salary for my day job. The first wave of trademarks that I did and sort of self taught. We’re pro bono because the promise was okay. Well, like, to be honest with you, I know enough to issue spot that you do need a trademark. However, I’m not really sure how exactly the system works. So if you would allow me to, you know, so they would pay like the filing fee.

[00:10:42] Sonia Lakhany: And some of them were nice enough to kick me a couple hundred bucks or like, you know, 50 bucks or something on like an Amazon gift card or whatever. But yeah, that was very early on. And then when I got, The actual IP position so that we were just talking about firm number two when I got the third position that was an IP firm in [00:11:00] atlanta.

[00:11:00] Sonia Lakhany: And so I moved to atlanta. I was not there at the time So I moved back to atlanta after so i’d graduated left Come back for this position and it was a it was actually an IP litigation firm So it’s still really hard to try to rustle up filings But that’s all I wanted to do. So once again, it was like, okay, well we’re a litigation firm.

[00:11:17] Sonia Lakhany: We litigate trade, you know, trademark infringement and still I would keep, you know, but at least I had a better setup where it was, the firm was set up in a way to actually deliver those services. And I, you know, I was able to ask some questions here and there. And then I was recruited by an attorney at, you know, what ended up being my fourth firm, but I met her out at a networking event.

[00:11:40] Sonia Lakhany: And again, we were having the same kind of conversations. And she’s like, You’re a star, like you need to be in an environment where we can really You know invest in you and like what if I brought you over we would invest in your education We would invest in your business. We would give you a business development budget because I was amazing at closing clients Amazing.

[00:11:57] Sonia Lakhany: They would send me to dinner and I would come back with a [00:12:00] retainer check in my hand You know, it was just like amazing and she was like, what if we did like invested in you and i’m like i’ve never had No one ever like gave I was always i’ve been paying out of pocket for all this stuff So I was recruited, to that firm, which was my last firm and Of course, it, of course it just turned out even better after that.

[00:12:17] Sonia Lakhany: It was my favorite firm of the four nothing wrong with it at any point. I think when people see you resign, maybe it indicates that something went wrong or that somebody was unhappy, but not as to the firm at all. I couldn’t have asked for a better scenario in that moment of like, thank you for rescuing me from this.

[00:12:36] Sonia Lakhany: Situation I’ve gotten myself into to like a proper full general transactional firm with a litigation arm in case we needed it, but there was so much investment in my development and if I had been the person that wanted a very clear path to partnership, that would have been the firm for me. And I would have stayed for the remainder of my career.

[00:12:55] Sonia Lakhany: The, I still have such an immense respect for all the partners. I still keep in touch with a number [00:13:00] of them. I send them work. They send me work sometimes and we just, we run into each other. It’s great. But ultimately when. I resigned. It was just the bug that I, you know, the itch I couldn’t scratch, I guess it was just like, I wanted to create something and I didn’t really know what it looked like, but I want, I always knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

[00:13:17] Sonia Lakhany: I just wasn’t sure how that would shake out. And so I woke up one day, had no plan, not at all. I just woke up one day. It was January 30th, 2015. It was a Friday. So I was like, all right, I’m just going to walk in and resign. And they were like what? Well, like, yeah,

[00:13:32] Jonathan Hawkins: You’re crazy.

[00:13:33] Sonia Lakhany: I am crazy. I’m absolutely batshit.

[00:13:35] Sonia Lakhany: Like I’m crazy, but I, but the thing is that this isn’t, this has been a recurring theme in my career path, which is bet on yourself and trust yourself. Look, I knew that I had, I knew that I could trust myself to figure it out. So like famously in entrepreneurship, they say that it’s, you jump off a cliff and build a parachute on the way down, and I just had a really, distinct faith in my ability to do that, even if I didn’t know what [00:14:00] it looked like.

[00:14:00] Sonia Lakhany: So yeah,

[00:14:02] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, you know, you are clearly one of those unemployable kind of people.

[00:14:06] Sonia Lakhany: I would get fired from any job at this point. I really, I’m so used to making the rules and deciding things of how I want it to look and nobody ever gets it sometimes, but. I just, I still have a lot of trust in myself. And I think that’s what I’ve learned to rely on is, you know, yourself better, you know, your capabilities, the best, you know, what you can and cannot accomplish with the right resources.

[00:14:28] Sonia Lakhany: I think that’s the most important thing is, you know, people say, but you have, you really have to trust yourself and if you know, for on the other end too, if you know that. You don’t really, you know, you don’t operate well in an uncertain situations, or you don’t operate well under pressure, or you get overwhelmed really easily, or you get stressed out really fast, then you know that you need more of a clear cut, defined path in your field.

[00:14:50] Sonia Lakhany: And that’s helpful information too, that’s good insight to have, you know.

[00:14:54] Jonathan Hawkins: So some people are just born rainmakers. I think obviously you are that. What about sort of [00:15:00] the entrepreneurial bent that you’ve got? Is that, have you had that forever since you were a kid? Is that something you grew up in? You know, where did that come from?

[00:15:07] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah, I I did the, like, lemonade stand, cold water on a hot day bottles as a kid. You know, my mom was like, this is so, I grew up in a really strict Middle Eastern upbringing. My mom was like, this is so unsafe. I don’t want my daughter outside. And I was like, no, it’s just the neighborhood. It’s fine.

[00:15:23] Sonia Lakhany: You know, so I just always, I don’t know. I just always had it. And I think I, I grew up then, you know, I read a lot of books. I wasn’t allowed to really do much. I really, like when I say I grew up really strict, I really was. And so my mom didn’t have, you know, a lot of activities didn’t. want me out and about doing stuff.

[00:15:39] Sonia Lakhany: So I spent a lot of time by myself in my room reading books. The one thing she did let me do and fully invested in was the trips to the library. We would go on a day, I would come back with a stack like this. I’ll just anything and everything that looked interesting. There was no rhyme, reason or pattern to the kind of stuff that I would read.

[00:15:56] Sonia Lakhany: And then. By the next day, I’d be like, I’m done. Can we go back? And [00:16:00] she was like, this is crazy. This kid’s insane. So I turned into a really fast reader killed the vocabulary building. I was, I mean, I read a dictionary at one point, but cover to cover and learned all these words. I think my parents were just like, we don’t know what to do with her.

[00:16:12] Sonia Lakhany: But interestingly, not that you asked, but I do feel like it’s interesting to note that none of this translated into good grades ever. I was always really bad in school. Yeah, my obviously I touched on my law school credentials. I was like a C law

[00:16:26] Jonathan Hawkins: well, you got an Emory. That’s.

[00:16:28] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah, I think they looked at it was like this California girl wants to come here and Emory, you know is a really high rated school even back then in 2000 and 6, 7, 2006, 7, when I took the LSAT and applied, but it wasn’t what it is now in terms of this level of national recognition.

[00:16:46] Sonia Lakhany: And so I think they were like this girl from California wants to come to Atlanta. And you know, this isn’t on the bio page, but I followed a guy, it was dating a guy. And he’s the one that asked me to apply to Emory. He’s like, it’s still a top 20 school. And I was like, I’m [00:17:00] wait listed at UCLA, excuse me, but I didn’t make it off the wait list at UCLA.

[00:17:04] Sonia Lakhany: Eventually I never did. And it was time for school to start Emory. Not only admitted me, but with welcoming arms and a partial scholarship. I mean, it made a dent in things, but it was something, you know? And so it just seemed like the, I just, sure, why not? Let’s roll. Everything has just been like a semi calculated.

[00:17:20] Sonia Lakhany: Sure. Let’s roll the dice.

[00:17:23] Jonathan Hawkins: Okay. So, so about almost 10 years ago, you decided to go out on your own. So, you know, take me back. So you walked in and January said I’m resigning. I’m going to start something. You know, what was going through your mind? Did you have clients? Did you just want to have control of your own destiny?

[00:17:41] Jonathan Hawkins: Why’d you do it?

[00:17:43] Sonia Lakhany: I think that I could see the very clear path of what the future looked like, which is kind of goes back to that question of uncertainty. It’s like, what’s your comfort level with uncertainty? Or certainty I guess as well So like I think at the time I could see the path [00:18:00] very clearly laid out of what my future was going to be like and I think the fact that there wasn’t didn’t seem to me at the time that there was any room for Something different or new.

[00:18:08] Sonia Lakhany: Like, so this is just it, like I just show up every day and I do what I’m told I make partner. And I’m sure a segment of people listening to this are like, yeah, doesn’t that sound to me? Like what part of that is a problem? And I’m like the part where there’s no excitement, there’s nothing, no day’s going to be different.

[00:18:24] Sonia Lakhany: This is just going to be it. And I think that really made me sad in a way. Like it really made me a little like, that’s it. And I was just like, Oh, okay. I did all that to just know exactly what’s going to happen. And I think I was chasing the excitement of the unknown. I wanted something new and different, but also by then I had been, you know, I’d read so many books and I had started following some of the biggest entrepreneurs in all the, in different industries.

[00:18:50] Sonia Lakhany: Right. And so I had these role models and their stories. And so I would listen to podcasts just like this one. And, you know, it’s. It’s still a little bit of a pinch me moment. I told you this before we started that like I can’t believe i’m [00:19:00] the one Being interviewed now and that people want to hear what I have to say when I was sitting here soaking up every interview every article Every everything by founders and creators and i’m like I want something like that Like I don’t know what but I want something and so yeah, I didn’t have a plan.

[00:19:14] Sonia Lakhany: I roughly speaking. I thought I would Do I would create a partnership with some other lawyer friends that I had met along the way but that? imploded probably like two weeks into Found for if you can call it freedom, but yeah that imploded pretty quickly So I was on my I just realized again. I was like, oh no This is just again gonna be the same thing like it doesn’t seem very exciting And so I was like, alright, well you need income coming in.

[00:19:39] Sonia Lakhany: That’s kind of a thing So first thing you do is at least create a law corp. Like that’s the first thing you can do. At least it’ll get some money coming in. And then the next half of it, I couldn’t have predicted crystal balls in the world, which is a majority of my clients were like, well, we want to work with you.

[00:19:57] Sonia Lakhany: We chose your firm because of you, you’re the [00:20:00] one that we met at a lunch or got, we got your name from someone else. And by then I had become very well known in my immediate circles for trademarks, even though I was still, but well, by then I think I knew I had a mastery of it by fourth. Yeah, I was a fourth year associate at the fourth firm.

[00:20:13] Sonia Lakhany: I had a decent mastery of it, but I had built that personal brand for so many years that people had just come to associate Sonia with trademarks. If they knew who I was, you got to go to Sonia. And so I had been building a lot of business. I had brought in a lot of business into that firm I was in.

[00:20:28] Sonia Lakhany: And I think that’s maybe what gave me like one speck of confidence to say, okay, well, you’ve been bringing in the business and you’ve been doing it, which is what the deal was. So you could probably do this on your own if you had to. And so a lot of them came with me and followed and they were the first cut of people that sustained me for the first few months.

[00:20:48] Sonia Lakhany: And then that turned into more and turned into more and here we are. So

[00:20:52] Jonathan Hawkins: So, so I want, we’re going to shift and talk about your other business in a minute, but I want to get a little bit more on the law firm. So when you started, it was just you. [00:21:00] How has your firm evolved over the last 10 years? Is it still just you? Have you added people come and gone? What’s that look like?

[00:21:08] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah, I think front facing. It’s always been me. There has always from the moment I could afford help and support on the back end. It’s looked very different along the way, but from the moment I could afford it, I knew it was important because again I’d gotten my entrepreneurial degree from all these founders and their stories and following them.

[00:21:25] Sonia Lakhany: And I would just soak up everything they said, or, you know, lessons and stuff like this. So I knew, you know, you’ve got to delegate, you’ve got to, you know, you’ve got to hire, you’ve got to get help. Yeah. So, I’ve had help always, but I’ve always been the main attorney, at least public facing. If there’s ever been anything that I didn’t have the bandwidth or the knowledge to handle, I would refer it out.

[00:21:44] Sonia Lakhany: And I, I learned that relationship turned into two way where then people would say, okay, well, clearly, you know, and I think most attorneys have their favorite stuff or the things they’d like to do. And so once you kind of find the sort of Your puzzle piece in that, in, in your [00:22:00] colleagues, it becomes really easy to have that when you don’t have to ask for referrals and beg for business.

[00:22:04] Sonia Lakhany: And neither do they, we just know like you, you are really good at trademark trial and appeal board, the TTAB stuff. I am not, I don’t want any of that. So, you know, I’m going to send all that stuff to you. And then they’re like, okay, well, I have a search. You know, I’ve got a couple searches we need done. And you know, can you gauge the registrability of these following marks and rank them?

[00:22:22] Sonia Lakhany: And they need some counsel on this. I’m like, yes, absolutely show up. Got, you know, so that’s what that looked like in terms of building the business. But yes, I have worked with a number of attorneys over the years and I still do. So they’re just not public facing, I guess.

[00:22:37] Jonathan Hawkins: All right, so let’s shift. So you’ve got this 4L education company, you know, sort of tell us what it is. And then when did that come to life? When did that happen?

[00:22:49] Sonia Lakhany: Once again, I mean, it’s probably starting to sound a little old already to whoever’s listening, but man, this was the furthest thing from a plan. But again, it is a surprise, but it’s [00:23:00] not when you think of, I was going to create something eventually. We just didn’t know what it was. So 4L ended up being the second, something, and I’m probably not the last, if we’re being honest.

[00:23:08] Sonia Lakhany: I mean, Like I just have the spirit of it and I enjoy it a lot. I enjoy the puzzle of Solving problems and putting things together and saying, okay, well, if this is the end goal, you know, my mind just works in that way. And I’m a professional problem solver. And so I feel like that’s just what I’m built to do.

[00:23:28] Sonia Lakhany: And I enjoy creating things and thinking of stuff. And so the way that it started was I was in my third position. So the IP firm and you know, I was always out at networking events and different things. And I met I met a lawyer. So now we’re in Atlanta. I met a lawyer and. His name is Braxton Davis, still a friend of mine to this day, great guy.

[00:23:49] Sonia Lakhany: And he had something called the patent Institute of training pit. And it was sort of what I’m doing at the moment, but back then for patents, patent [00:24:00] lawyers, right. And so training them and teaching them actually how to do the thing versus theories and case law and statutes and stuff. And he said, well, you know, With patents comes trademarks.

[00:24:08] Sonia Lakhany: You can’t really have that conversation separately. And so I would love to have you as a guest instructor for one of our bootcamps, like just the days and times. And if you would just come and I was like. You know, not me thinking on the back end. I’m like, man, the ink has barely dried on my law degree.

[00:24:23] Sonia Lakhany: Number one, like four years later. And I barely have a mastery at this point, but I was like, I know enough to teach it. And that fee, that, that was in my mind the entire time, which is I struggled with trying to find true practical instruction. No fluff. Just show me how to show me where to click, where to say what not to do like cautionary, all this stuff.

[00:24:42] Sonia Lakhany: And so I said, yeah, I’ll teach for you. Sure. So I showed up for one guest panel, I had the best time and the reviews were incredible. Everybody was like finding me on LinkedIn later and saying, you know, do you have anything else that you teach? You do? I’m like, no, that’s good. I’ve been, now I have to go back to practicing law.

[00:24:57] Sonia Lakhany: And then he asked me back for something else. So I [00:25:00] did a few more things with him and I just realized that testimonials and the reviews after the questions that people would get so many people wanted to connect afterward. And I just had no idea that I had tapped into. Get another sort of interest, gift, talent, whatever, skill set, whatever you want to call it in taking really technical information or not intuitive into just click here, do this.

[00:25:25] Sonia Lakhany: Just trust me on this, right? Like just conversational, make it easy. And so it was really a result of. Following what the market asked me to do. And I learned those words from entrepreneurial podcasts and books, right? Is I had no idea what any of that stuff meant, but I did know that the market people tell your customers will tell you what they want.

[00:25:44] Sonia Lakhany: You don’t get to decide. And so after, I forget the magic number, but after so many LinkedIn messages and coffees, people were like, if you ever decide to teach, I am in. So just let me know. Here’s my email address. Put me on a list. I didn’t have a list. A list of what? Like, what do you mean? [00:26:00] So started email is started collecting.

[00:26:02] Sonia Lakhany: And then I woke up one day. I don’t know if I would advise people to do that. Cause it was like, not really the best idea, but I tend to do things before I’m ready for them. Let’s put it that way. I tend to just pull the trigger on things before I have all the details. And I think that’s a good and a bad thing.

[00:26:17] Sonia Lakhany: But it saves you from overthinking it. Sometimes you’re like, I’ll figure it out. Right? It’s that figure out ability of it. And Marie Forleo, one of the many entrepreneurs I’ve followed for a long time has a book called that. Finally, it would make sense, right? That everything is figure out eventually. And so so many messages.

[00:26:33] Sonia Lakhany: I said, you know what? Let me try to design a course. So I still remember. I think it was like a Saturday night, a glass of wine. I was like, okay, how quickly, what’s the timeframe that I could teach trademarks and like, how long would this realistically take from zero to mastery? I was like, let’s just call it two weeks of trademarks.

[00:26:49] Sonia Lakhany: Let’s just see. So I built the outline. Fine now, cause it’s evolved so much, but that was the first cut. And it reminds me of like Jeff Bezos sitting in his garage, like that in [00:27:00] the very beginning, early stages, right. In the nineties of like building Amazon and y’all start somewhere. And so all I did, like created a curriculum.

[00:27:07] Sonia Lakhany: I said, okay, twice a week for two weeks. In two to three hour increments, I will teach this curriculum and here’s what I’ll teach. Here’s the syllabus, all this. And I was like, wait, how do I accept money? Well, law pay link. No clue. I was like, sure, law pay link. And wouldn’t you know it, but 17 people signed up and it doesn’t sound like a lot except that, and there’s so many more pieces to this, but you have to think about, okay, curriculum.

[00:27:33] Sonia Lakhany: Where are you going to get these customers? How much are you charging for it? How are they going to pay you? Like we always, you know, but I talked about it with one of my brothers who is also an, I come from a long line of entrepreneurs. So maybe we should have touched on that in the beginning. And they’ve always, he was always pushing me.

[00:27:48] Sonia Lakhany: Even from the beginning, he was like, you don’t need to practice at a firm. Like you can, you shouldn’t quit and just do your own thing. And so I sat down and I said, I have this idea. And he was like, okay, so like, what are you going to charge? And I was like, I don’t know, like three [00:28:00] 95. He’s like for two weeks of legal education.

[00:28:03] Sonia Lakhany: And I was like, well, I don’t want to, I mean, I gotta make some, I don’t want to do it for nothing. So anyways, we mutually landed on seven, seven 97 or nine 97. I forget. Anyways, all I know is I made close to 17, 000 that day. I was like, holy shit. That’s, I mean, right? Like, whether you’re doing it completely wrong or not, that’s nothing to, you know, scoff at.

[00:28:23] Sonia Lakhany: And so, I was like, okay, we’re on to something. This is something that

[00:28:27] Jonathan Hawkins: And so, so, so, so real quick. So had you already built the course or did they, did you sell it first? Cause I hear that a lot, you know, a lot of people say, you know, go sell it first, see if there’s demand, get the, you know, get the cash or at least get the commitments, then build a course. Is

[00:28:43] Sonia Lakhany: Well, yeah, because, yeah, 100%. And because by then now I had shifted my overall entrepreneurial study and focusing to course creation. Once I decided I wanted to really follow this, then I started following course creators, taking courses. I had taken a couple of courses [00:29:00] on how to build a course. And I famously have said to I’ve met him a couple of times now.

[00:29:04] Sonia Lakhany: And so he, it was really cool to be able to meet him and tell him, but his name is Ramit Sethi. And he’s Amy Porterfield, Marie Forleo. And he had a course at that time called zero to launch. So it was like, get your idea, hone it in. Here’s how you build it, market it and execute it and all this.

[00:29:21] Sonia Lakhany: And I’ll be honest with you. The course had tons of modules and tons of stuff. I watched about two hours of it while I was washing dishes a few nights in a row. Maybe like five or six, right? And I just, I was like, all right, I got it from here. I’m like, you paid for this course. What is wrong with you? But I was like, I got it from here.

[00:29:37] Sonia Lakhany: And I just intuitively, and that’s, I, you know, I regret that. I, that’s not like a teachable skill. I don’t know how to teach intuition when you just. Have a knack for it. I imagine that it’s like other areas of expertise, like singing or acting or something else where you just naturally gifted, I guess, in that little lane.

[00:29:58] Sonia Lakhany: And you just have to run with that lane. [00:30:00] And so I have a natural intuition for business and what’s going to work, what’s not going to work. And so I knew better. I knew not to teach it until I had. Sold it. And seven, I mean, it was nine 97 times 17 or something like that. So it wasn’t exactly 17, 000 when you minus like the 2 percent fees of the credit card and whatever, but it was enough to get software, get a couple of VAs to help and execute it.

[00:30:22] Sonia Lakhany: But yeah, it was a set of zoom links and a curriculum. So it was like these days and times

[00:30:25] Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So, so I want to dig in, we’ll get into a little bit of the details here, cause I’m really interested in this.

[00:30:30] ​

[00:30:43] Jonathan Hawkins: So you come up with a catchy name, you sort of floated out there somehow to, to your network. You start getting interest. They’re saying, yeah, let me sign up. You quickly take a course to figure out how to do it.

[00:30:55] Jonathan Hawkins: So what was going to be your delivery? Was it all video with it? Was there you [00:31:00] know, live chats or, you know, one on one calls? What was the structure of sort of that first version at least?

[00:31:06] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah, the first version and for many versions thereafter at the time was, here’s the syllabus date, time, topic. You know, a few bullets on what you’re going to learn. Here’s the zoom link. So your ideas, you log on at that day and time. And I teach live. I’ve got my slides, my little faces here in the corner chats open.

[00:31:27] Sonia Lakhany: It was a live experience. It went in, you know, the discussion would take us in all kinds of directions, but I have the core. I mean, you have the core three stages of practicing trademarks, right? Well, four, if you count the intake and console process, right? But you’ve got your search. And analysis of the risk, you’ve got the application process, you’ve got office actions, if any, and then registration, hopefully.

[00:31:47] Sonia Lakhany: Right. Then there’s a million ways it could go off after that, but that’s, I mean, you have your core curriculum. And so it would take us in a lot of different directions, which was cool. So people got a live experience. They could ask questions. And the promise was in the [00:32:00] duration of this two weeks, right.

[00:32:01] Sonia Lakhany: Because it was two weeks to trademarks. And in this two week period if you have any questions, you have open access to my email. Send any and all questions, curiosity, concerns, and then I will answer them at the top of the session next time, right? So you get that kind of like live Q& A. Also during, I would upload the recording afterward and send it out if people missed.

[00:32:21] Sonia Lakhany: And then they got, yeah,

[00:32:23] Jonathan Hawkins: So, so let me cut you off there real quick. Let me cut you out there. So you’d record it and you’d upload it. Was there a platform where people could log in or,

[00:32:32] Sonia Lakhany: No, I sent video files for months and only because yeah, no, and I couldn’t believe people were okay with it, but I didn’t know any better. That’s the thing. I didn’t, you know, there’s a little pesky details, but again, I realized I was like, Oh, well, just like how there’s case management software for you to like keep track and stuff like that.

[00:32:50] Sonia Lakhany: And I don’t know how I stumbled on it. I was like, Oh my God, are you serious? There’s whole platforms where you can just log in and upload and, you know, And so that was the first, that was [00:33:00] three platforms ago though. So we’ve come a long way, but so what the conversation we’re having now, this was in mid 2017 is when I developed and marketed the first cut of two weeks of trademarks and had my first cohort.

[00:33:13] Sonia Lakhany: And then I just kept teaching it every single month and it grew and grew where people were like, I have missed the last two enrollments. When’s the next one? When’s the next one? And I realized very quickly, That there was never going to be a magic time or place that everyone could make it.

[00:33:29] Sonia Lakhany: Right. And then it all changed. I don’t, I wish I could, I should go back in my email from those days. But one person was like, I mean, you have the recordings, right? I’m like, yeah. Like, what if I just paid you for the recording? I’m like, what, why would you want to do that? You can’t even ask me. I’m like, okay, well, no, I feel bad.

[00:33:44] Sonia Lakhany: Cause what if you have questions? I’m like, okay, so. Here are the recordings. Links to all the video files attached here. Psychotic. If you have any questions at all, I’ll get on the call with you. Like, I’m, I feel like this isn’t that great, but they’re like, no, I have kids. I don’t, I’m never going to have time. [00:34:00] And the idea when I was like, literally a bulb, I was like, wait, if there’s one person who’s willing to pay for recordings. After the fact, let’s just test this and you just have to be okay with testing. Just see what happens. Like I have lived my whole life on this model. Even my personal, I just see what happens.

[00:34:17] Sonia Lakhany: What’s the worst that can happen. Right. And so, and not that this is part of your Q and a, but I do feel like somewhere I should say that like, Money management’s a thing and I’ve never been I would say in like the top 10 percentile of money management But i’m definitely not in the bottom half I’m decent in the sense of I never ever spent everything I made and I think it would have been really easy at the time When you make We keep saying it’s 17 grand, probably closer to 15, five, maybe 16, right?

[00:34:44] Sonia Lakhany: With the fees and stuff, whatever. Right. To go out and buy a Chanel bag and put a down payment on G wagon and do all this stuff. And I was like no, we were not there yet. Like we are just getting started and we don’t know when we might need that money. And by then I had with running the law firm for that long, I had known.

[00:34:59] Sonia Lakhany: That was [00:35:00] two and a half years into running a law practice. I know that you don’t spend everything you make and that you need to reinvest back in the business, meaning hire and build and these sorts of things. And so, I think that helped is to have a reserve. And so, it was, I was able to then, I think, What did I do at the time?

[00:35:18] Sonia Lakhany: You know, I looked at a couple of platforms, picked one, but yeah, so I just, let’s just test this. And so I picked the best set of modules from the last six or seven cohorts that I had done my favorite set. And not coincidentally, it was the most recent set. Cause I bettered it every time. Right. If I noticed that people were asking the same sorts of questions, the very next PowerPoint deck had those questions in.

[00:35:39] Sonia Lakhany: Right. So you don’t even need to. So I did. I kept. Improving, tweaking, improving, tweaking. It was a labor of love, but I just fell in love more with it every day. And, you know, let’s be real. The testimonials and the reviews don’t hurt, right? When people are cheering you on and thanking you for, you know, teaching them a practice area that now, you know, they made an extra 10, [00:36:00] 15 grand.

[00:36:00] Sonia Lakhany: Which at the time now, my testimonials are, I mean, I had my first a hundred K month because of you, 50 K month doubling, tripling my last year’s revenue because of what you taught me how to do. And we’ll get to that because there’s so much between that statement and where we’re at right now in terms of what the course can teach to get that.

[00:36:18] Sonia Lakhany: But to have people telling you this, and it’s not a fluke story, we’ll do a lot for your confidence. So even if you’re unsure of certain things, you’re like, no I’m doing something that’s. That’s winning. And so, yeah, I, it was then that it went evergreen. And so I found a course platform at the time it was called Kartra had it for a couple of years.

[00:36:38] Sonia Lakhany: We’ll get there, but you know, realize it, we were, it wasn’t a fit moved on and so on. So yeah, that’s how it became from live to evergreen. Yeah.

[00:36:47] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, you know, it’s interesting you sort of, for lack of a better word, sort of stumbled into the, you know, live to evergreen sort of evolution. But, you know, somebody like I think it’s Russell Brunson, somebody like that, he says, you know, [00:37:00] early on, he’s going to give a live presentation, you know, maybe 20, times before he turns it into evergreen, because that’s where you get the feedback that all the questions you said that you then worked into your, you know, the last version, you know, you sort of need to give it live a bunch, probably.

[00:37:17] Jonathan Hawkins: And then it just gets better better, then boom, you can do live. But so let’s, let me ask this. So it sounds like your customers are lawyers, right? So the question is, you know, exactly who, you know, lots of types of lawyers, who are your sort of ideal customer for that platform or that program?

[00:37:34] Jonathan Hawkins: And then how do you find them? How do you get in touch with them? And maybe that first group, People you knew, but you know, take us through that.

[00:37:42] Sonia Lakhany: I have yet to run an ad to this day, either for the law practice or for 4L. Well, let me back up. So 4L, people are probably like, wait, 4L, you just had two weeks of trademarks. So from 2017, as I was teaching these live enrollments month to month, and then in 2018, late 18, early [00:38:00] start of 19 is when that whole conversation about making it evergreen had started.

[00:38:04] Sonia Lakhany: And I thought at the time, okay, well. How do I sort of balance this idea of did I just get lucky the first few times, right? To now. And so the course, that course then and still is called Two Weeks to Trademarks to this day. 4L came last year, actually, in so late 2023 when I had been teaching that course.

[00:38:28] Sonia Lakhany: And I know I’m fast forwarding, but I’ll come back in a moment. I just want to close the loop on why it’s called 4L. I, after two weeks of trademarks had this wild, fast demonstrated growth. It introduced the idea of lots of spinoff topics that are related, but separate and parallel in the sense of, okay, well, when you get an office action, obviously it would teach that, but that’s a whole thing you can go into by itself.

[00:38:50] Sonia Lakhany: So then I developed a five and a half hour bootcamp. With a colleague of mine, Eric Pelton, who’s long been a friend and fellow trademark practitioner, we taught it together, [00:39:00] killed it, just wild success. So there was that there was lots of other sort of spinoff trainings. And this relates to the question about not only how do I find my attorneys.

[00:39:09] Sonia Lakhany: But also what attorneys would be interested in, you know, in this material. But during those live cohorts, you start to, if you’re paying attention, right? Your customers tell you what they’re looking for, what they want. And there were repeated questions after the curriculum and the core substance. It was okay.

[00:39:24] Sonia Lakhany: So how do you find your clients? Who needs a trademark? Like who are my, right? And so I’m starting to find that I’m teaching my marketing, right? So pulling from Lakhani law, how did I build Lakhani law to, well, this is what I did. This is what worked for me. So you’ve never run ads? No. This is what I do.

[00:39:40] Sonia Lakhany: Right? I do organic referral building and content and this kind of stuff. So I taught that, which then introduced the idea of what if the course had an additional arm of business development and marketing education and all the things you need to know out how to do a consultation, how to price your services.

[00:39:58] Sonia Lakhany: Right. So the whole [00:40:00] suite of practicing trademarks, not just practicing trademarks and man, I wish I had buckled up because I had no clue what that was going to unlock, but it makes sense as we talk about it. Yeah, of course you want the whole story. Right. And so, That’s how I realized what attorneys wanted from me and what attorneys would be interested would be, you know, on the first level, if you’re doing business, transactional work, formation, small, anything with businesses, contracts, counseling, strategy, stuff like that, founder work, startup work, I mean, you have to have trademarks as part of the conversation there’s because if you’re building a business, you got to call it something.

[00:40:35] Sonia Lakhany: What are you calling it? Okay. Well, don’t you want to make sure you’re allowed to use that name? And if you have thought of a really great name, don’t you want to make sure you own it? Right? Why would you build a brand that you don’t own? So that’s the first level. I have discovered many more types of attorneys that have been interested.

[00:40:51] Sonia Lakhany: As I look at our, now I’m in the hundreds of alumni. I would say we’re probably, I think we just crossed 700 [00:41:00] attorneys, like Maybe in the last three weeks from 2017. So four years. I know. I’m just

[00:41:08] Jonathan Hawkins: so. So, so real quick. So like, like I’m a run of the mill just business lawyer. And I want to add, I instead of referring that workout, I want to add some of the expertise in house. So, so your course is where I would go, right?

[00:41:22] Sonia Lakhany: So that’s, I think, so we have sort of two columns at this point of The attorneys that I think slash no, I still say, I think I have a feeling, but I’m like, no, you know, this now, like to say it, you know, like I’m working on that, but I know for one, it’s business transactional patent attorneys, right?

[00:41:39] Sonia Lakhany: This is the, if you’re versed in patents, you’ve got to know trademarks. And again, law school didn’t teach us. So unless you learned on the job somehow, and if you did, like I did guaranteed, there are gaps in your knowledge, right? You’re stitching it together as you go. I say this all the time to anyone who will listen.

[00:41:55] Sonia Lakhany: I’m like, we don’t know what we don’t know. It’s your blind spot back here. I have no clue that [00:42:00] had I known that was a thing, I would have done it, but I didn’t know. And so lest you click the wrong button or type the wrong thing in the application and now it’s gone to the USPTO and. Oh, if only someone had told you, you don’t do that, right?

[00:42:11] Sonia Lakhany: That’s going to backfire or whatever. And so, patent attorneys, franchise attorneys, right? So it’s interesting that there are two different businesses, but they have so much overlap because the groups of people and the demographics I just listed are the very people I work with to get trademark referrals.

[00:42:27] Sonia Lakhany: So the sweet spot is. Well, if you’re an attorney and you find yourself referring this work out to someone like me Then if you’d like to keep it in house Then you’d want to have there and really could what if someone showed you that it could be a full Service that you have with all these components rather than just a one off filing that you don’t think is worth your time so I think people I take people from the transition of thinking it’s a one off or Just kind of a whatever, like, loss leader, low level kind of commodity in terms of a practice area to a full blown, [00:43:00] lucrative, potentially, you know, high revenue thing.

[00:43:02] Sonia Lakhany: And so that’s one avenue, right? The other avenue has surprised me over the last couple years, but it’s the lifestyle benefits of being a trademark attorney that has created the second parallel, which is I am in crim. I’m doing this insert area that I just hate. It’s high stress. The clients are driving me crazy.

[00:43:23] Sonia Lakhany: It’s so much crime, custody battles, like litigation, like I hate the word litigation. So I just. Can’t even express how much I am anti litigation for my personality type, right? Like I am default wire to be in a good mood 99 percent of the time. And so I could just know that would change if I was in an adversarial world.

[00:43:43] Sonia Lakhany: And I don’t have, I don’t, you, this is not me discounting myself. I don’t have what it takes to be a litigator. I don’t. And that’s okay with me because I have found my sweet spots. Right. And so the other parallel of attorneys that are, that would be interested, In this material and in my courses would be I want something a little bit [00:44:00] different I need a break from what i’m doing, even if it’s not a full transition Just a you know, and what i’ve taught a lot of my you know with 700 attorneys and counting I’ve had a lot of success stories and a lot of case studies and i’ve been able to either take that first group and grow From a one off or whatever to something, you know, really high end and lucrative.

[00:44:19] Sonia Lakhany: I’ve also taken attorneys from You whatever practice area they were not happy in, typically family. Honestly, I see family law a lot and I take them from that to almost a full transition in some cases, but if not, even if we’re at least splitting it in half, that then you can maybe be a little more choosy about the kinds of family law cases, for example, that you’re taking.

[00:44:40] Sonia Lakhany: Right. And you don’t have to take everything to meet your revenue goals, for example. So that’s a lot of different ways it goes into, but those are the attorneys that are interested. And that’s how I find them. It is. I mean, the first cut was people that were, I marketed to the people that would send me work.

[00:44:55] Sonia Lakhany: I’m like, do you want to just learn how to do that? So

[00:44:58] Jonathan Hawkins: Alright, so I’m going to ask a question [00:45:00] that all the lawyers out there are thinking. You’re a trademark attorney, and you’re out there training your competitors, and you’re training your referral sources

[00:45:09] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah, I know.

[00:45:10] Jonathan Hawkins: do the work instead of sending it to you. What are you thinking? Well, what in the world?

[00:45:14] Sonia Lakhany: crazy, isn’t she? i’ll be honest. I didn’t think that through on day one in 2017 My intention in a not so kind way by some, you know, hater attorneys as I like to call them So you don’t get this far by the way without having some haters along the way There are definitely a probably A couple of people that are not my biggest fans because, and I’ll tell you why.

[00:45:33] Sonia Lakhany: I have a feeling that I know why it’s because of what you just said, when you’re out here creating a bunch of competitors and do all this. But to me, that’s such a scarcity mindset, you know? And I know we throw these words around like abundance and scarcity, but there’s so much trademark work to go around.

[00:45:47] Sonia Lakhany: I couldn’t possibly handle all of it if I wanted to, and nor do I want to. And same for you, hater and same for you, whoever else is hating, right? Because so to me, all I hear in that is that you don’t have confidence in your ability to market. And develop [00:46:00] business for yourself. And so you’re worried about this little piece of the pie that you thought was yours. In my mind, the pie gets bigger when you share it. And I have my own testimony because my Lakhani law crossed seven figures in 2020. Which was three years after I started teaching two weeks of trademarks. So it’s not my own business grew Unintentionally, but because I think I got on the map higher and higher of she does trademarks.

[00:46:23] Sonia Lakhany: She teaches it da and so you have someone who’s completely just out of left field in an audience and a talk I give that’s like look Love everything. I just, can you just take a look at this trademark? I’m like, yeah, sure. Right. They’re like, I don’t want to learn it much respect. And then that would turn into this or that.

[00:46:39] Sonia Lakhany: And cause there are attorneys learn a new practice area. I’m very happy in my trademark world. If you asked me to learn franchise law, which would really behoove me to do so, because it’s such a part and parcel of what we do. I don’t want to. And so if you came to me, right. And we’re like, I’m going to teach you how to do franchising.

[00:46:54] Sonia Lakhany: Here’s the course. I’d be like, no, thank you. I am very happy in my own little world, but I will send you any franchising work that I happen to have. [00:47:00] Right. You see, so there, it just depends on what someone’s out there for, but yes, absolutely. Those comments have been made. There’s, and my answer to that is my opinion is that there is more than enough work to go around the U S PTO filing numbers back that theory.

[00:47:15] Sonia Lakhany: So, I mean, year to date, I just checked the other day, the year to date, I think we’re in three or 400, 000. Applications filed. No, sorry. 700 and something applications filed year to date. And we are in just finished June. So we’re halfway through the year and 330 something thousand registered marks a year to date from the USPTO.

[00:47:35] Sonia Lakhany: That’s a drop in the bucket. How many trademarks can you possibly take on effectively? Come on. Right? So I don’t

[00:47:41] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, well, you said you, you said three things there. Number one, which I agree with is the abundance mindset. Number two there’s more work than any one person or one firm could do. And number three, your revenues have gone up since you’ve started training people, right?

[00:47:57] Sonia Lakhany: Who knew? Who knew that there it [00:48:00] is. Yeah, there it is. And so I think though that I learned this from the entrepreneurial entrepreneurs that I followed initially, and it’s only cemented my thoughts on this, that people always want, you know, your Most proven your hack for time management, your productivity secrets and whatever, you got to fix your mindset.

[00:48:19] Sonia Lakhany: If you don’t think that you can, or you don’t think that you deserve it. And all these sort of wee foo things that are not so wee foo, the, I really, as I share my story and. Again, it’s a pinch me moment because I still don’t think I’m done. I’m like, no, I’m just getting started. Like I haven’t even, I barely now have a mastery on, I think everything.

[00:48:37] Sonia Lakhany: And I have the, and that’s why we chose the name four Ls. Cause I wanted an umbrella brand that would, you know, two weeks of trademarks is our most famous. Course or well known offering there’s so many more and that leaves room for non trademark stuff because there’s so much else that we can share by way of attorney education and so yeah, i’ve proven it with the numbers but you know, you [00:49:00] really have to have a mindset around this sort of stuff and You have to believe that you can and that you deserve it and for whatever reason like i’ve said a few times today that I, that never went anywhere.

[00:49:10] Sonia Lakhany: I always knew I would figure it out. I always knew I deserved to be successful. I, my deal with myself in the mirror was if you put in the work, you will get what you want, but you got to put in the work, right? There’s no magic pill. When I, when people see my, my. Case studies and testimonials. They’re all over my youtube channel.

[00:49:26] Sonia Lakhany: They’re all over my course websites. I’m very public about them It says something that so many attorneys are willing to put their name Bio and headshot next to a quote that says I got them 100k month, right? Like that’s legit That’s not like a get rich overnight. But if you listen to the stories That, and I interview mine, right?

[00:49:43] Sonia Lakhany: And I’m like, tell us how you got here. Everybody does different things with the material. So it’s really fun to listen to. And they like, I put the work in, right? They didn’t, this isn’t a get rich quick. They’re like, if you think Sonya is just going to make you a millionaire overnight, like that’s not what she’s doing.

[00:49:55] Sonia Lakhany: She’s, I sort of, the analogy is I’m a personal [00:50:00] trainer, a really good one. But you have to come to the gym. You got to do, you got to eat your chicken or your protein and drink your water and lay off the alcohol a few times a week. And if you do that, if you show up and you follow what I say and implement it, you will get what you want.

[00:50:13] Sonia Lakhany: But if only, and so yes, of course, not that you asked, but there’s absolutely been a small, albeit small segment, of people who have seen all the cool stuff, add to cart, checkout, enrolled. Never once logged in cause I can see all the analytics, right? So like I can see everything. And so when they do make a comment, it’s rare, but they’re like, Oh, I didn’t, I wasn’t one of her success stories.

[00:50:34] Sonia Lakhany: I’m like, you never even logged into the, you’re 20 percent through the material. So how did you know, so there was that aspect to it. And I don’t know if we’re going to touch on this later, but I want to share a recent win that we had that related to the 4L branding because so up until now we were two weeks of trademarks for years, had all these other courses turned into a store.

[00:50:53] Sonia Lakhany: So now I have a whole store and we joke that I’m the Amazon of trademark practitioner materials. You could go on right now, add to cart, check out [00:51:00] and get your material. I don’t have to be around. You could self teach something. You could be ready for a consult by tomorrow, right? With my material. And, It was just two weeks of trademarks and all these other courses.

[00:51:11] Sonia Lakhany: Sonia’s stuff, right? Sonia’s stuff, our courses or whatever. And obviously with attorney education comes the natural question of, oh, well you’re teaching substantive law. Can I get CLE credit for this? And I’m not stupid. I knew day one that would have been amazing. I also knew that is a. Climbing of a Mount Everest that at the time I didn’t have the resources.

[00:51:34] Sonia Lakhany: And every time I tried, I kept running into a dead end. Right. I mean, we as attorneys know that we need salie credit. We as attorneys do not know how freaking hard it is to secure it in almost every state for the same course. I can get it for you in my local Georgia cause that’s my home bar for example, or whatever.

[00:51:51] Sonia Lakhany: But yeah, so that was an undertaking that I would not wish upon my worst enemy. It was a really hard feat. However, Love sharing a good win [00:52:00] because late, middle of last year, we got I had been working behind the scenes for a long time to get the attention of the ABA. And the ABA not only was impressed with what I had created they, I mean, they were just, they approved it, loved it.

[00:52:14] Sonia Lakhany: We’re so supportive of, and they’re like, is that all you need? You need to give CLE credit for something that is literally teaching substantive law. And so I’m short cutting for the purposes of, you know, a fun video. But anyways, we got ABA approved. You know, we have a partnership with ABA to approve our core, the courses in almost every state.

[00:52:31] Sonia Lakhany: And so I was like, what have I done in a good way and a bad way, but that just The universe is, you know, the world’s your oyster. So that’s why we chose 4L

[00:52:40] Jonathan Hawkins: You know,

[00:52:40] Sonia Lakhany: it was time. So yeah,

[00:52:42] Jonathan Hawkins: that’s cool. I want to ask you that offline. I want to ask you about that because you know, I know about, I mean, think about it, you’ve got 50 plus jurisdictions and so someone signs up for the course and they say, yeah, I want it for Tennessee, Georgia, California. So then all of a sudden on the backend, you’ve [00:53:00] got to figure out how to.

[00:53:01] Jonathan Hawkins: Communicate with all those different jurisdictions to make sure it’s delivered and they got the certificate and blah, blah, blah,

[00:53:06] Sonia Lakhany: Oh, you’re telling me

[00:53:08] Jonathan Hawkins: was a huge undertaking, but we won’t waste time now cause I do want to ask something I don’t want to keep you,

[00:53:13] Sonia Lakhany: I got you any questions you have anytime you have my email. So yeah

[00:53:17] Jonathan Hawkins: so I do want to ask you about marketing both for your law firm and for 4L. You said you’ve never done any paid ads. You’re very good. You get out there in the community. You know, I think you at least used to do a lot of speaking gigs. I think maybe you’re big on social media. What were your channels?

[00:53:32] Jonathan Hawkins: You know, what is it you do did then? And what is it you do now to get the word out? And what, and the last question on that part three is what is the most effective for you in your brand?

[00:53:43] Sonia Lakhany: Sure. So, marketing has always been my first love. Before even trademarks, right? And I’ve always been fascinated by the psychology of buyer behavior, how purchasing decisions are made. I don’t know why, but I always, I mean, I remember probably from one of those [00:54:00] freaking books I read in the library once when I was a kid, but I remember specifically checking out books on. Brand like psychology of brand colors, like how, you know, fast food restaurants will choose red and orange because it incites hunger, but then it doesn’t make you comfortable. It makes you want to leave versus, you know, cool tones, like blues make you feel relaxed and there’s so much that goes into building and brand and all this, but, and so maybe that’s why trademarks as a practice area resonated with me.

[00:54:24] Sonia Lakhany: Cause it fit with that whole idea in terms of a marketing plan. I never had one except that I would try something, see if it worked, try something, see if it worked. And sometimes I’ve been wrong. Sometimes I’ve been right. Sometimes I’ve been wrong. And when I’ve been right, I just follow that. I mean, it really is that simple.

[00:54:42] Sonia Lakhany: So I have and still do speaking engagements. I’m on podcasts. I speak at conferences. I host a number of my own webinars and informational trainings that are really huge for people who want Getting the word out. I would say, you know, obviously I’m on social media. I’m trademark lawyer lady and I have been for years.

[00:54:59] Sonia Lakhany: So that was, [00:55:00] it served a dual purpose. Phil does of marketing for my law firm and marketing for, you know, the courses. Now it’s probably more course driven. I think I’m just more well known for that. And I’m okay with that, right? That’s not my, that was not my primary lead gen for the law firm. What has been the most effective is Facebook and not ads or anything.

[00:55:20] Sonia Lakhany: So very early on in 2018 or 19, I think I created a Facebook group called trademark attorneys slash lawyers, no creativity, zero. And. I invited all of the colleagues I had asked them to do the same, invited all my students asked them to do, you know, and it was like anyone and everyone, if you’re remotely interested in what as an attorney or, you know, paralegal law student.

[00:55:47] Sonia Lakhany: So this isn’t to serve consumers with their trademark needs. Right. So I built a Facebook group. And so now we’re almost at. We’re somewhere between 3, 500 and 4, 000 members on Facebook. And I [00:56:00] don’t have the exact numbers right now, but somewhere along that, and it just grew and people started, and I tell people, invite your colleagues, you know, and it was a forum to give support to one another, answer each other’s questions, a little finagles, you know, that kind of stuff.

[00:56:12] Sonia Lakhany: What do you use for this software? What’s that? And students would post themselves. You know, I just want to share, I took Sonia’s course and I learned this. If you’re looking at, you really try it or you should really take a look at it or, You know, they would Somebody would ask and say, you know, I’m looking at this course.

[00:56:27] Sonia Lakhany: I know Sonya is that it’s awkward because I’m like admin. I can see everything, but I try to stay out of it. I really, my promise to myself and with the group is that it’s not the Sonya show. This is not an advertising scheme for two weeks of trademarks. This is a true support community for the attorneys that are interested in trademarks or do currently, you know, some level of practicing it.

[00:56:45] Sonia Lakhany: And it’s here to be a safe space for those attorneys. However, if there are questions about how to learn trademarks, Someone will beat me to it, right? So I’ll share it eventually once I see it, that the post was made. But yeah, I mean, it has grown in and of itself. [00:57:00] And so Facebook group has been probably.

[00:57:03] Sonia Lakhany: One of the bigger avenues for that, I would say.

[00:57:07] Jonathan Hawkins: So, so let me ask about that. So I’ve got a Facebook account, but I have not been on Facebook. I maybe go in there once a year for the last eight years. So I really, I’m just not familiar with it. Is Facebook pretty active still? And then I guess, how much time does it take for you to. Maintain that group or whatever.

[00:57:27] Sonia Lakhany: So it’s active for the people. So if you’re a user of Facebook, yes, it’s active for only that segment. Obviously there’s a number of people that deleted their account or don’t go on there for, you know, we’ve had all this data and privacy stuff over the years. So I completely understand the people that are on it.

[00:57:42] Sonia Lakhany: And. What I’ve learned about that is that you’ve got to meet people where they are. So that’s why you don’t just do Facebook, for example. I’ve learned that the people who do Instagram don’t do Facebook typically. You kind of have one platform. Everyone’s busy, right? One area that I haven’t been as big on is LinkedIn.

[00:57:58] Sonia Lakhany: I’ll post occasionally, [00:58:00] but you would think that would be where I would do it and I’m getting more into that now. But as far as a time commitment, you know, when it was Sonia in the very early days and I was a sheriff and I’m wearing the firefighter and I’m the, you know, town hall mayor. Yeah, it was a huge time suck.

[00:58:16] Sonia Lakhany: But like I said, I have gotten myself out of a lot of things over the years by delegating. And so I have an amazing team behind me that just never gets public credit, unfortunately. And they’re okay with that. Like they don’t want it. Right. I’m like, do you guys want to be more? And they’re like, no, we don’t.

[00:58:31] Sonia Lakhany: We’re happy just. They love the mission. They’re so proud of our students. They’re here to support our current student base, prospective student base. And so I have a lot of help is the answer to the time question. I am not, I mean, sometimes I get on there, I have my phone and I’m on Instagram. So I would say it’s sort of three primary channels right now that people hear and become more acquainted is the Facebook in general, or the group itself. There are a number of other lawyer groups too. So Facebook lawyer groups are a thing. And if you’re in, if you’re not, then you’re like, [00:59:00] I have no idea what that’s about.

[00:59:01] Sonia Lakhany: Then we’ve got Instagram and then we’ve got obviously your email list. And I would say that’s you kind of have to double up. I don’t think any one by itself is effective, but we do those three primarily, I would say. And the email always just reinforces, but then you have people who don’t check their email, but they’re on Facebook.

[00:59:18] Sonia Lakhany: So there’s, you just have

[00:59:20] Jonathan Hawkins: Or it goes to spam. I’ve,

[00:59:21] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah.

[00:59:22] Jonathan Hawkins: you know, I’ve got my email list. I’ve had it for years. And you know, it’s not huge, but it’s, you know, I send it once a week and you know, when somebody I know unsubscribes, it hurts a little, but you know,

[00:59:32] Sonia Lakhany: we can talk about that. I, that’s a great thing that you brought up. And I’m so glad I’m not alone because people laugh at me. They’re like you’re so like, what’s the word I’m looking for? I mean, I don’t want to be crass, but like people say you’re ballsy, right? You’re so confident about taking risks about all these kinds of things that you of all people are afraid of email unsubscribes.

[00:59:51] Sonia Lakhany: And I’m like, email is the last. Channel of the three in terms of like the lowest of my comfort level and like what I want to do, but [01:00:00] it is very effective. I hate sending mass emails and that’s why I don’t, I probably undersend because every single, I look, I don’t care if it’s seven people out of 7, 000.

[01:00:11] Sonia Lakhany: My, my list is over 7, 000 people at this point. Seven people unsubscribing, I will look at each. It is, but I’m like, I’ll look at all seven of them. I’m like, why do you hate me? And I’ve texted a couple of

[01:00:22] Jonathan Hawkins: I know.

[01:00:23] Sonia Lakhany: did I do something to upset you? And they’re like, Oh my God, no.

[01:00:26] Sonia Lakhany: Why? And I’m like, well, I’m, you’re, this is going to sound silly, but you unsubscribed from my list. They’re like, girl, I get your emails on multiple accounts. Like my work email, my personal, that’s all. I was just trying to clean up. I was like, okay, so you don’t hate me. So I probably understand if anything.

[01:00:40] Sonia Lakhany: And maybe it’s cause I’m afraid of. Being the person that’s too spammy, too this, too that, because My forward mission has been to remedy what I went through and hopefully prevent that, that struggle with anyone else. If someone’s serious about wanting to learn trademarks, I hope that they don’t go through what I did of making a million mistakes and getting chewed out by [01:01:00] partners and ruining things and having to refile at your own expense.

[01:01:04] Sonia Lakhany: And, you know, that was my primary mission is that, and so yes, I’ve turned it into a business, but. I also don’t want to be accused of like a money grab or like nickel and diming people So I give away a lot of free advice. I do a lot of free cles ever since I got the aba partnership I have put on So many free CLEs and I know we’ll talk about this later.

[01:01:22] Sonia Lakhany: No, one’s going to be interested in this, but it is really expensive. I take such a huge expense, I guess is the right, right word. To the tune of 500 to a thousand dollars per free CLE by the time you count in every state and the application fees, and then this fee and the certificate, and.

[01:01:41] Sonia Lakhany: Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Some States are more expensive than others in some sort of, you know, yada, yada. And so I suppose, I guess that’s the fourth channel. I didn’t even think about it. I mean, in a sense, cause that’s newer, but yeah, that’s, I suppose the fourth channel is free CLE. So I do think I do enough free content and mentorship for the community that it’s okay.

[01:01:58] Sonia Lakhany: But yeah, I hate [01:02:00] unsubscribe. It makes me like so stressed.

[01:02:02] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, you know, there’s a lot of folks that I’m friends with that, and I’m on their list that they send the print newsletter because that’s not going to get unsubscribed to, you’re going to get

[01:02:12] Sonia Lakhany: is throw it away. Yeah.

[01:02:13] Jonathan Hawkins: my podcast a while back. Family lawyer Marco Brown out of Utah. And I’m pretty sure he said he sends a print newsletter to every attorney in the state.

[01:02:23] Jonathan Hawkins: Every single attorney in the state. I think every month. And he says he gets, you know, crap about it. And it’s like, well, you can just throw it in the trash, you know. But at least on the way to the trash, they see your name, right? They can’t, and they can’t unsubscribe. Now, it costs more but yeah.

[01:02:38] Jonathan Hawkins: So, I know, we’ve been going a while there. I wanna wrap it up here in a second. But, you know, for the younger lawyers out there, or the lawyers, maybe not so young, that are thinking about maybe starting a firm or dreaming about it, are there any pieces of advice you would give them?

[01:02:55] Sonia Lakhany: How much time are you sure we don’t have another 14 hours on that? Because I could, I mean, as I’m [01:03:00] sure, you know, right, having made your transition, And your story is so fascinating too of going through what, you know, is a fit maybe in one season of your life, but not another season, right? And, but you’re, I mean, who better to speak on than being able to see both sides of partnership and then your own firm.

[01:03:15] Sonia Lakhany: And so I, you know, I’ve never been partner at another firm. I didn’t stay long enough for that to happen. I mean, the advice, I’ve got tons, but I really think that the, this, I’m going to try and give something different. I’d like to give something different. That’s not the usual, right? That you can’t find by Googling or, you know, reading about it or anything.

[01:03:31] Sonia Lakhany: And I think that if I had to narrow it down to one or two pieces of advice or something, I would say number one, you, as soon as possible, the sooner you can figure out for yourself, whether you are a. An entrepreneurial business minded can handle stress chaos problem solving that kind of stuff or that just sounds terrible and you need certainty and assurance and stability and all these kinds of like the quicker you can figure out which column you’re in [01:04:00] and learn that about yourself.

[01:04:01] Sonia Lakhany: I mean, there’s no right one or we need both in this world. So I think that’s really crucial because I see Both. And it’s such a shame to me when someone who is in the, I don’t like certainty. And Oh my God, I’m so overwhelmed and burned out. And that’s how burnout happens. And it’s just not a right.

[01:04:17] Sonia Lakhany: Entrepreneurship and running your own firm or running your own. Anything is not for everybody. Right. And if I can have one person save themselves from that journey, if they decide which column they fall into, I think that’s really important. I think you need to gauge your comfort level with uncertainty. overwhelm unexpected situations, unexpected issues. That’s really important. The rest of it you can learn, but you really have a, you need to know which one you are. And if you’re not, if you’re not ready for that first category, don’t do it. Yeah. Don’t do it.

[01:04:50] Jonathan Hawkins: I

[01:04:51] Sonia Lakhany: But if you are, it’s a fun ride.

[01:04:52] Jonathan Hawkins: on. I think that is huge, you know, cause there’s all these messages out there. It goes, taught you business, be a founder la, everybody. It’s like preaching [01:05:00] it, but it is not for everybody. And if you try it and it’s not for you and you don’t succeed or you give up or move back, you might feel like a failure.

[01:05:09] Jonathan Hawkins: Or something, you couldn’t hack it and you’re right. It’s not for everybody. So that is very wise. So again, Sonya, thanks for coming on for folks out there that want to get in touch with you. You know, what’s the best way if they’re interested in maybe checking out your courses or whatever where can they find you?

[01:05:27] Sonia Lakhany: The channel. So LinkedIn, Sonia Lakhani, easy to find Instagram trademark, lawyer lady, if all else fails 4Leducation. com and that’ll show you everything. And I am very responsive. My, my team and I should say are very responsive. So I mean, everybody has all the tabs open all day long. You will get an answer.

[01:05:44] Sonia Lakhany: You will get an answer, even if it’s, let me find out for you because people have questions about their individual state or their own situation of like, okay, I’ve filed three trademarks. So far, like, where do I fall in your course? You know, what do I need or what version of your course is best for me and [01:06:00] stuff like that.

[01:06:00] Sonia Lakhany: But I, I love mentoring. That the giving back of the education and preventing someone from being flailing around by themselves is the whole premise of what I built for a lot. I didn’t have to. So, I will wrap up by saying this is that, you know, with the conversation of, Should you be an entrepreneur and how do you know, what advice would you have?

[01:06:19] Sonia Lakhany: It’s the right of a lifetime in all the best ways. If you’re suited for it, all this stuff is true. It’s the most delicious grind I’ve ever experienced. And similarly, if you’re not right, that’s why it’s so important to figure out whether you’re cut out for it or not, because, and that’s the way to do it.

[01:06:33] Sonia Lakhany: You don’t have to do it to know if you’re like no. That just sounds bad. Then I don’t want to do it. But yeah. After my firm had the success that it did, I actually was, and could have retired. That’s the way I set up my financial situation. So, I mean, it did that well for L everything from now on is this, it started as a passion project, but obviously it has grown into a very.

[01:06:55] Sonia Lakhany: Successful second business of its own. But it really is based on passion and [01:07:00] I said I joke around I’m like, I don’t have to do this. I don’t I do not have to spend my energy doing this But at the same time, you know, i’m not even 40 yet So I feel i’m gonna be 39 in a couple months. I feel like I have a long way to go and I love it.

[01:07:14] Sonia Lakhany: That’s the thing. And so I keep coming back to that is that if this doesn’t sound fun, then it’s not going to be fun later. But if it’s starting to sound kind of cool, I just, I love the ride of it. And so I feel like it’s it’s important to note that you don’t, you’re not a failure if you’re not. Cut out for entrepreneurship.

[01:07:30] Sonia Lakhany: That’s not at all. You’re just it’s either chocolate or vanilla. Everyone has their preference

[01:07:34] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, again, thank you for coming on and I think you just gave the show a title to the delicious grind. I love

[01:07:42] Sonia Lakhany: You know, it is the most delicious grind I don’t know if you have a hard stop on this or not But I wanted to share one more analogy do you have a couple more minutes because I feel like I just

[01:07:51] Jonathan Hawkins: yeah, go for it.

[01:07:53] Sonia Lakhany: I’m fine. I added a buffer cause these things always end up being great conversation.

[01:07:58] Sonia Lakhany: I would say that if, you know, [01:08:00] especially as you’re, you know, if you’re graduating law school, chances are you’re 25 or above, right? And if you’re 10 years into your career, that makes you 35. That’s if you went straight through. And so the conversation about parenting and having children is inserted and woven along the way.

[01:08:16] Sonia Lakhany: And I don’t have children at the myself, I am an auntie to my nieces and nephews. I’m a very involved one at that. I take my role very seriously. And I have a number of friends that are parents of children, right? I have young children. I should say it is the closest analogy to running a business.

[01:08:32] Sonia Lakhany: And so if you have children, however, that is going for you. Entrepreneurship is going to be the same way. Probably it’s full of unexpected chaos and scenario and sleepless nights, but. I bet if I asked almost any one of my friends and family members that are parents, they’re like, wouldn’t trade it for the world.

[01:08:50] Sonia Lakhany: Hardest thing I’ve ever done. Really takes me out some days, but wouldn’t have it any other way. And that is how I feel about running a business. And so it is my baby, but it has [01:09:00] so many parallels from what I could see. In terms of the lifestyle and the way that your brain has to work and what you have to be, you wake up and you’re like, I don’t know, some days you’re like, I don’t know what fresh hell is waiting for me on this inbox.

[01:09:12] Sonia Lakhany: But then you have other days when the baby smiles or giggles or your kid comes home and they’re like, you know, I love you, mom. I love you, dad. And you’re like, oh, it’s all worth it. And it’s the same thing when you get those success stories or when I get those messages, they’re like, they’re literally, it’s the best analogy I can make because my students are my babies.

[01:09:27] Sonia Lakhany: And when they win, I am like, I literally want to disintegrate and melt out of joy and it makes all the stress worth it. And so I guess, you know, I know nobody asked me about that, but I feel like it’s a really good analogy that no one talks about. Entrepreneurship is just like parenting children and however that’s going for you, it’s probably the same.

[01:09:48] Sonia Lakhany: So yeah, for whatever that’s worth, I wanted to add that

[01:09:51] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I love that. That’s great analogy. And yeah, it is it can be the highest highs and the lowest lows, but it’s a great show But it’s [01:10:00] fun. I’m with you. So,

[01:10:01] Sonia Lakhany: ever done, but

[01:10:02] Jonathan Hawkins: thanks again.

[01:10:03] Sonia Lakhany: Yeah. Thank you.

[01:10:05] Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Thanks again for coming on and we will continue this conversation offline because there’s definitely some more questions I have.

[01:10:12] Jonathan Hawkins: So

[01:10:12] Sonia Lakhany: Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you.

[01:10:15]