[00:00:00] Victoria Collier: a large part of what I did as an elder care attorney was I did veterans benefits and I also taught lawyers nationwide on how to do this very specific type of VA benefit for senior veterans who had served during a wartime period and there’s additional tax free income that they can receive to help them offset. Long term care costs like home health care, assisted living care, nursing home care, and prior to me becoming a lawyer, I actually was in the military for six years, active duty in the Air Force. And prior to that, I actually was a nurse’s aide in a nursing home and I did home healthcare. So it all ties in together as to my path forward. But what we do there, it’s called Patriot Angels. We help families. You know, assess whether someone can be eligible for that pension benefit.
[00:00:56] [00:01:00]
[00:01:25] Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner Podcast. I’m Jonathan Hawkins, your host. We’ve got a really great guest today. We’ve got somebody who has not only sold a law firm personally, but also helps other lawyers sell their law firms and maybe buy them too. So, Victoria Collier, why don’t you give us a brief introduction?
[00:01:47] Jonathan Hawkins: And then we’ll dive in from there.
[00:01:49] Victoria Collier: Sure, that sounds great. Thanks for having me, Jonathan. I am Victoria Collier. I’m the founder of Quid Pro Quo which is a company that helps lawyers figure out what the value of [00:02:00] their law firm is and then position to transition which often means either transitioning out of their role as lawyer and ultimately transition out as a lawyer.
[00:02:10] Victoria Collier: owner so that they can sell and go have what I call a life after law. And prior to that, yes, I did create my own law firm directly out of law school in estate planning, elder law. And I did that for 18 years and I sold my law firm in 2020. And so during that time of having a law firm for 18 years, I also was creating co owner of other businesses specifically that helped lawyers build their practices and just have better practices.
[00:02:43] Jonathan Hawkins: All right. I want to delve into all of that stuff. So, Are you currently practicing at all?
[00:02:49] Victoria Collier: I am licensed and on occasion I’ll take a bleeding heart case, but no, I don’t I don’t practice a whole lot, but I am Co [00:03:00] owner of a business in Tennessee that’s a paralegal business and my partner there who is a non lawyer, she and I and one other partner are applying to open a law firm in Arizona where non lawyers can own law firms.
[00:03:17] Victoria Collier: So, I hope to answer that question differently when you ask me in about six to eight months.
[00:03:22] Jonathan Hawkins: I do want to dive into the non lawyer ownership question. We’ll get to that in a little while. But so tell me about that paralegal business, just how does that work?
[00:03:32] Victoria Collier: So, a large part of what I did as an elder care attorney was I did veterans benefits and I also taught lawyers nationwide on how to do this very specific type of VA benefit for senior veterans who had served during a wartime period and there’s additional tax free income that they can receive to help them offset. Long term care costs like home health care, assisted living [00:04:00] care, nursing home care, and prior to me becoming a lawyer, I actually was in the military for six years, active duty in the Air Force. And prior to that, I actually was a nurse’s aide in a nursing home and I did home healthcare. So it all ties in together as to my path forward. But what we do there, it’s called Patriot Angels. We help families. You know, assess whether someone can be eligible for that pension benefit. And then we help them apply for it. I am an accredited agent through the Veterans Administration and we assist with applications and things like that, but we can’t do any legal work.
[00:04:43] Victoria Collier: So we can’t do any like planning for people who are not currently eligible. And that’s why having a law firm. Is so beneficial that ties in nicely with that business.
[00:04:55] Jonathan Hawkins: So you’ve done, you did a lot of different things before law school. What led you [00:05:00] to.
[00:05:01] Victoria Collier: Well, I was a paralegal in the private sector doing workers compensation. And what I realized was that I was essentially doing everything except walking into court and arguing the case. I was preparing the depositions for my lawyer. I was handling all the client communications in between hearings.
[00:05:22] Victoria Collier: And I thought, you know, if I’m going to be doing everything except walk into court I’d like some more responsibility. And with that responsibility, I’d like the the compensation that goes with that.
[00:05:32] Victoria Collier: So, but really Jonathan, you know, the thing is this I have always, ever since my very first job, which was my first real job at Burger King when I was 17 was, you know, if there was always a position. Higher than the one I held. I was always vying for that. And so as a paralegal it just, you know, there was a position that was higher than that, and that’s called attorney. So, it was just always stepping, you know, stepping those steps.
[00:05:56] Jonathan Hawkins: that’s cool.
[00:05:57] Victoria Collier: Climbing that ladder.
[00:05:59] Jonathan Hawkins: So, you went to law [00:06:00] school and you know, you had worked in law firms. You’d done a bunch of stuff before. So you came out, did you know what you wanted to do? And then what did you do? What’d you do in your first job
[00:06:11] Victoria Collier: Well, out of law school?
[00:06:13] Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.
[00:06:13] Victoria Collier: I did know coming out of law school what I wanted to do. I didn’t know what I wanted to do going in law school. I thought I did. I thought I wanted the corporate job where I could wear my nice little suits and walk downtown. Cause my mother, even though she wasn’t a college graduate or anything She works downtown in Houston, Texas, where I was raised and she wore the nice little suits and and I wanted on some level to be like her. So I took corporate law classes and oh my gosh, I fell asleep in them. I, you know, I mean, nothing interested me other than white collar crime, you know, like insider trading and I’m like, Oh, I should stay away from that then. Hey, if that’s what excites me. And it wasn’t the prosecuting of it. It was, you know, everything else. So, but I had you know, I tended to gravitate towards clerkships that had to do with [00:07:00] serving people who had disabilities. And so I had a job where, you know, people were beginning, were being discriminated against in employment because of disabilities. And I thought I would just go back and do worker’s comp because that’s what I was doing before I went to law school. But I had gone to law school in Nebraska. I wanted to be back in Georgia, which is where I was. When I was a paralegal. And so I kept looking for jobs in the workers comp area in Atlanta. And I kept hearing the same thing is we want someone who can work for us our third year so that you can then become an associate after that.
[00:07:38] Victoria Collier: And I couldn’t guarantee that I could do my third year in Georgia from Nebraska. But as it so happened, I I sat in my apartment on the floor in Nebraska and I was talking to my Partner who was a assistant district attorney not making a whole ton of money And I was [00:08:00] just like, you know crying saying, you know, well, let’s pretend money doesn’t mean anything what do I want to do and basically I just said I want to work with old people and So my partner did a lot of research and she found that there was Basically five lawyers in the whole state of Georgia that focused exclusively on elder law And so I flooded the market with my resume for all of them. I got a summer internship with one of them. And while I was down interviewing, I went and I saw the elder law professor at Georgia State. And I sat in her office and crying sounds like it’s a thing, but I cried. And so she, bottom line is she needed a research assistant. And I became her research assistant, so I did in fact get to go to law school my third year in
[00:08:48] Victoria Collier: Georgia, at Georgia State. And then I worked for that lawyer for a full year before graduation. And so I did know when I graduated that I wanted to do elder law. The question [00:09:00] was, do I do it for him, or do I do it for myself, or do I do it for someone else? And bottom line was, They were all sole practitioners and they all wanted to stay sole practitioners.
[00:09:10] Victoria Collier: And so I opened my own firm right outside of law school.
[00:09:13] Jonathan Hawkins: So I’ve heard you talk about this. So how did you do that? So, you know, you graduate in the spring, but you don’t, you know, you take the bar in July and then hopefully pass it and get your license in October ish. So how did you structure that? So you could do that.
[00:09:27] Victoria Collier: Right, so, you know, I didn’t have any money saved up, and I went to law school all on loans. And so I actually found a lawyer who, I didn’t find, I didn’t go out seeking. There was a lawyer that worked in the same building that I worked in and he was doing family law. It was a second career for him. He had worked for the government. And When he retired from the government, he started working for his son doing family law. Well, once he did that, his son left, like abandoned him with the family law cases. [00:10:00] And he was miserable. And so I said, well, don’t be miserable. Come work for me. I need a bar license.
[00:10:07] Victoria Collier: And and this is the feel good kind of law. People give us cookies and stuff. And he knew the lawyer I was working with. So he had seen how happy the lawyer I worked for was all the time. And so, so that’s what we did is I worked under his bar license until I became licensed and then we became partners for a year and after that year we both decided it was time for him to retire.
[00:10:33] Jonathan Hawkins: So what did he do with his current family law cases when he came over to, did he get rid of all of them?
[00:10:39] Victoria Collier: Well, he resolved them all and just didn’t take any new
[00:10:42] Victoria Collier: ones, which is, you know, the traditional way that people close their practices, right? They don’t even think that, Hey, I can sell this thing. So he did the normal, let me just wind down and let these, you know, fizzle out. And so that’s what he did.
[00:10:58] Jonathan Hawkins: So when he retired, did you [00:11:00] have to buy him out or anything like that? Or did he just sort of close up and walk out?
[00:11:05] Victoria Collier: So I didn’t have to buy him out. Ultimately what I did was I showed him. A chart that showed what percentage of clients I bring in, what percentage of clients I work on, and how much I pay him. And so it just made sense that I not continue that path and he, you know, took what was his. And. He’s retired, I didn’t have to pay him anything, and the interesting and wonderful thing was that he continued to do pro bono work at the VA, he continued to be very active in his church, and so he continued to send me clients regularly.
[00:11:46] Jonathan Hawkins: And so what was the interplay between the elder law, I guess, practice and the VA practice? Are they similar or are they similar enough to where they sort of work off each other?
[00:11:58] Victoria Collier: Well, the type of veteran’s [00:12:00] benefits that we did is essentially a subset of elder law, so it’s a specialty within, so I’m a big believer in niching so as an example, Estate planning is a niche of law. Within estate planning, you have elder law. Within elder law, you have special needs planning. You have guardianship.
[00:12:18] Victoria Collier: You have veterans benefits. You have Medicaid. So, you have probate. So, VA was just one of the niches within.
[00:12:25] Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I’m big believer in this practice also. I know a lot of lawyers are scared to do it, but you know, huge believer in that. So, so this guy leaves, you’re on your own, I guess, at that point. You know, what was sort of the evolution of the firm after that?
[00:12:38] Victoria Collier: So, that was in 2003. And, I. Had big vision and so I started just building up the practice with legal assistants and paralegals. I had been a paralegal, so I really felt comfortable with paralegals. Could relate and treat them with [00:13:00] respect, which I think makes a big difference in the success of a firm. And so, that’s what I did, and so I went from Essentially, he and I were together. We made about 150, 000 the first year to, then I built it up to where when I sold it, I had been making on average around 1. 3 for five years before I sold it in 2020. So we had a social worker on staff. I had another associate or two here and there. But I was very heavy on paralegals, legal admin and receptionist.
[00:13:34] Jonathan Hawkins: How did you market the practice? How did you get your cases? Was this a referral? Did you get presentation type thing? Was it internet? What was sort of your
[00:13:43] Victoria Collier: You It was all of it it was all of it. I started off and I think that, you know, at different stages of your business, depending on how much revenue you’re making, depending on your staff and depending on the technology you can use, I, you know, there’s [00:14:00] certain things that I think are appropriate at certain levels.
[00:14:02] Victoria Collier: So I started off with getting you know, a newsletter that I sent in color. Through the snail mail and people loved it. And it wasn’t that standard thing that you can buy that, you know, 10 other, you know, Elder law attorneys are using the same thing. We drafted each one. It had personality in it. I was, you know, personable.
[00:14:25] Victoria Collier: So it wasn’t always just about law. In fact, it was mostly about, you know, things that are happening. About me, the firm, things like that. So newsletter was number one. And I still think that’s a wonderful tool to
[00:14:35] Jonathan Hawkins: me ask you a few questions on that. So I get a lot of those. I haven’t done one myself. A lot of people tell me I should. I guess the first thing is how often did you send it and who did you send it to and how did you get, how did you build the list of people to send it to?
[00:14:49] Victoria Collier: So, originally, I was sending it monthly. There were times that we didn’t, went down to quarterly, but then ultimately, I always wanted to send it monthly. That [00:15:00] just was the best result, result. When we sent it out, we always got referrals and clients back from it. And it started off being like one page, then it was front and back, then it was ultimately four pages when we finished when I, And it wasn’t just me writing the articles at that point.
[00:15:17] Victoria Collier: Over time, my social worker would write articles, my Medicaid paralegal would write articles, my estate planning paralegal, you know, so we were all involved. We would highlight our referral sources, so we’d have an article from them or about them. We sometimes had a crossword puzzle or a recipe, you know, things like that. And so, We send it out monthly. First and foremost, all of our clients received it on a monthly basis. Also our referral sources received it. Anybody that we could get on our list, we did. So if we gave seminars, so we, I was very big in giving seminars out in the community as well. So if we were able to collect their information, they got on the newsletter list as well.[00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Jonathan Hawkins: That’s cool, you know, so I want to talk a little bit. I’ve heard you talk about Listen we’ll call this evolution of your firm and maybe your role in it And you know a lot of lawyers out there that think you know, they have to be the one that closes The client I guess the first thing and that’s one mindset Thing that a lot of lawyers have another is I’ve got to be the one that talks to the client another one’s i’ve got to be the one that does all the work and so take us through sort of your evolution as the law firm owner through those pieces
[00:16:34] Victoria Collier: so So in the beginning, I certainly was you know, the person who met with all of our clients for consultations and did the sales call, if you will, and closed them. And then, of course, as the lawyer, I did the design work, you know, gave the legal strategy. Early on, I definitely, you know, wanted someone else doing the production.
[00:16:59] Victoria Collier: [00:17:00] So in estate planning, that’s drafting the documents, then for my review. And then there’s, in at least estate planning, you know, we would sign the documents with our clients, and so in the beginning, you know, I was part of those two. You have to have three people because you have to have two witnesses and a notary, so I was one of those three. In the beginning because I only had like three staff members, you know, so you take what you can and sometimes if I didn’t even have those, I’d, you know, call on family members or neighbors or somebody. And so I was very involved in all of it. I was definitely involved in doing all the marketing, definitely the visionary and the message the controller of the message that gets out there. Which means I also was going to nursing homes and assisted livings and visiting with my clients. I was the social worker visiting my clients on a monthly basis that lived, that were considered shut ins. I was out there all the time. So as we started to build, the very first person I hired was An accountant because when my partner left he was doing all the accounting through QuickBooks And as soon as he left I [00:18:00] tried to do that stuff And even though my original degree was supposed to be in accounting I apparently didn’t pay enough attention and I was doing double entries and I had all kinds of mess.
[00:18:09] Victoria Collier: It was kind of comical actually And so I hired an outside accountant a third party, someone I would never have an inside accountant in my law practice, no matter how big we get and so then the second person I hired was a receptionist so that I didn’t have to answer my own phones, but more importantly, so I didn’t have to schedule my own appointments, because we are our worst enemy when it comes to setting boundaries, and we just want to help people, and we’re like, of course you can fit in, of course you, you know, I can see you and
[00:18:36] Victoria Collier: So I had,
[00:18:37] Jonathan Hawkins: So true
[00:18:38] Victoria Collier: yeah. So I set out, you know, my policies and my procedures and, you know, I had someone else stick to those for me. And do all the, you know, confirmation of appointment letters because I feel that, you know, one of the things you hear all the time is the number one bar complaint is lawyers don’t return phone calls.
[00:18:56] Victoria Collier: I’m going to do this. Which to me is a [00:19:00] broader message of, we just don’t communicate enough, period. It’s not just the returning of the phone calls, but it’s being proactive in every possible way you can with a client, with a customer. And so I was very proactive with that. So, you know, we’d make an appointment, we’d confirm the appointment.
[00:19:16] Victoria Collier: I actually then, you know, created what we call a wow package to send to the client before they even got to us. So, and so that’s part of my marketing as you asked about, well, what did you do for marketing? Part of the marketing was sending out a wow package for people who’d already scheduled an appointment. So that way, when they got to the office, they felt like they already knew who we were. So it wasn’t a matter of, are you going to hire us? It was just a matter of signing the paperwork at that point. Right. So I needed someone else to do all that kind of work for me, because while I do know lawyers that, you know, they’ll stuff the envelopes and they’ll do all this stuff. It’s not the highest, best use. And if I could be. Networking with someone, if I could be sitting down making a sale, that’s definitely a higher, [00:20:00] best use of my time than stuffing boxes to get out to people. So then it just went from there. I hired paralegals. I tried to hire associates. And in fact, I did over the years, hire lots of associates. I just didn’t manage them well because I wasn’t a strong enough leader.
[00:20:15] Victoria Collier: And so I started working on my leadership
[00:20:17] Victoria Collier: skills
[00:20:17] Victoria Collier: even though I was in the can I pause there for a second? The hiring of the associates. I want to dive in that just a second. So was it maybe unpack that a little bit. Was it, you know, as a, you know, supervisor, as someone who’s hired associates, sometimes you feel like it’s, you know, what did I do to not let them succeed?
[00:20:36] Jonathan Hawkins: But, and there’s two sides of the coin, but, you know, part of it might be something I have done or not done. And then the other side is maybe they’re just not the right fit, or maybe they just want to do something else. What kind of experience did you have there?
[00:20:49] Victoria Collier: So, first of all, I take the philosophy that it’s always me. It’s 100 percent my responsibility for someone’s success or failure. And so where my failures were is [00:21:00] that I expected everyone to be a mature adult that could be independent and have initiative and be as eager to be as great at what their role was. As I wanted to be in my role and not everyone is like that. And so number one, I didn’t identify that soon enough. Number two, I didn’t you know, I w I would see the good and hold on way too long. And beyond. What, you know, was ever repairable or mendable, moldable and so, so those kinds of things.
[00:21:38] Victoria Collier: And so I had to, that’s where I said I, I needed to learn more leadership skills is that I needed to learn first and foremost how to hold myself accountable because I can’t hold other people accountable unless I hold myself accountable. And I had to learn that I wasn’t holding myself accountable in all the ways that I wanted them to be accountable. So I had to turn that mirror on me. And so once I realized that, then I started [00:22:00] doing that, and then you start accepting less, meaning you start Accepting behaviors that are not acceptable. And then people don’t like you. Well, I wanted people to like me and then so I had to have awareness around that.
[00:22:12] Victoria Collier: Well, this isn’t a popularity contest. You can be a good leader. People can still like you. But they don’t have to like you. And you can have a mutual respect for why you’re here and what the vision is. And so I had to learn that. And I had to learn how to fire people without crying. Or at least not in front of them. So there was that and I’ve had people that, you know, like almost hit me when I had difficult conversations with them like literally almost physically hit
[00:22:38] Victoria Collier: me. And so, it was being, it was, Standing strong in your conviction of what is best for the business period, the end and taking the emotions that hold you back from making the best decisions for the business out of the equation.
[00:22:55] Victoria Collier: And that doesn’t mean you are emotionless. It just means that regardless of your emotions, [00:23:00] you are doing the right thing for the business all the
[00:23:04] Jonathan Hawkins: that’s very insightful. But let’s get back to sort of the evolution of your firm. And I think I’ve heard you say that at some point you sort of stepped out of sort of the sales or the closing role with the clients. Tell me about that.
[00:23:18] Victoria Collier: So I started traveling a lot because I was, I had created a a training conference for other lawyers on the veterans benefits piece. And so I was out of the office a lot and then I took a two week vacation to go to Greece. And I realized I need to make money when I’m not here. Right. And And so where it started making money while I wasn’t there was that we would just start doing the signings without me.
[00:23:44] Victoria Collier: So I trained someone else to be able to lead the signing appointments. And because we got our second check on the signing appointments. So at least I knew if we’re not getting new business, at least we can close the old business and still get money in the door. And then as far as [00:24:00] the consultations where the light bulb went off for me was that. I had a very systematized intake process where I had a receptionist that did a very preliminary intake and then got it to my intake specialist who spent more time with the person to really see, can we help them? Is this the right fit? Well, what we realized was that when they were Probate type clients, those who needed to go through probate. Then we would pass them off to my probate paralegal to do the intake. Well, she was so good at it that people were, by the end of the intake, saying, Can I just hire you? And so, she was like, Yes. And we would just take credit cards over the phone. And so I learned two things there. Number one was I don’t have to do the sale.
[00:24:49] Victoria Collier: And number two is they don’t even have to come in and this is pre COVID. This is like way before zoom was ever a thing. And we weren’t using Skype either. And so, so I learned, okay, [00:25:00] so I can actually do consultations from wherever I want to in the world because people are hiring us on the phone without even seeing us. And number two, I don’t have to be the one doing it. So we started off with probate because that seemed to be easy. You don’t have to give any legal advice in order to determine Does someone have to go through probate or not? You just have to ask the question Do you have any does the deceased person have any assets in their name without joint owners or named beneficiary? Well, it sounds like then That might go through probate. So if you want to help us with that, this is our charge and we can set your appointment on such and such You send us your client questionnaire in advance. We’ll have the petition ready when you get here. Does that sound like something you want to do?
[00:25:42] Victoria Collier: Yes, it does. You know, so, and so then my paralegal would run with making the petition. I would review it. I would meet the client when they came to review it. And we’d go from there. So then after that concept, I thought, well, that’s great. Where else can I step out? And [00:26:00] so my Medicaid and veterans benefits paralegals Came next.
[00:26:03] Victoria Collier: And I said, okay, again, we don’t have to give a legal advice here. It’s a clear cut line. If you’re above a certain amount of assets, you don’t qualify. If you’re below a certain amount of assets, you do qualify. So if you don’t, there are tools we can put in place. That’s allowable by the laws. Do you want us to help you with those tools?
[00:26:25] Victoria Collier: Yes, I do. Great. Well, here’s what we charge. And. When you come in to meet with the lawyer for the strategy, she’ll go through what those tools are specific to you and how we’re going to save all of the excess money or half of the excess money. And all they need to know is if it was a married couple, it’s all of the excess money.
[00:26:46] Victoria Collier: If it’s single person, it’s about half of the excess money. So they didn’t have to give legal advice. They just had to say, do you want to save the excess? Or do you want to spend it on nursing home care? I want to save it. Great. Sign here and we’ll get you into a [00:27:00] strategy meeting with the lawyer. So that started working very well as well. And so then the last piece was just the estate planning piece that didn’t work as well for me. I don’t, I can’t say that I ever really learned it well, or I should say, I never really implemented it well with non attorney staff members, but I have lots of colleagues around the United States that do that piece very well with non attorneys.
[00:27:21] Jonathan Hawkins: You know, I’ve met a lot of attorneys who have, they have non attorneys doing the sales, doing the closing, do the consults. You know, I don’t know if that’d work for every practice area, but it does. You know, it certainly works in some, but a lot of lawyers are scared to do it, but you know, it sounds like it worked for you and I imagine that sort of let those sorts of insights and changes, you know, led you down the path to where you eventually, you know, had your firm ready to sell.
[00:27:49] Jonathan Hawkins: And so let’s talk about that or if there’s anything else you want to add, but
[00:27:54] Victoria Collier: Well, I would say that, you know, yes, it did lead it to the path of sale. And I think what you’re alluding to is [00:28:00] really is that at that point, the firm was not dependent on me to make money or do the production of the work. And that then becomes a very sellable firm.
[00:28:13] Jonathan Hawkins: yeah, I tell lawyers, you know, the less the firm depends on you, the more valuable it becomes. Thanks.
[00:28:20] Victoria Collier: Well, they, it depended on me for. The vision, right? They still saw me as the leader. I was the visionary. They bought into the vision and wanted to create the results for our clients. And so as leader with the vision, then I was also responsible for, you know, holding people accountable to performing so that we could get those results.
[00:28:44] Victoria Collier: Right. And so to me, that’s the Holy grail.
[00:28:47] Jonathan Hawkins: And I was, that’s a great point as the owner of the business, no one is ever going to care about it as much as you do you can set up all sorts of incentive structures and they can do a lot of the work, but you know, I really feel like [00:29:00] there has to be an owner that, that drives the business.
[00:29:03]
[00:29:16] Jonathan Hawkins: Now, maybe if you get really big, like Warren Buffett, you can put in a really strong CEO that. You align incentives and they can go, maybe that’s doable. But but yeah, you’re right. The vision, the owner, they’re the ones that has that usually. But let’s talk about the sale of your firm.
[00:29:31] Jonathan Hawkins: So, you know, tell us about how that came about and how, you know, how you decided that’s something you wanted to do.
[00:29:38] Victoria Collier: So, there were a few different moments when it crossed my mind heavily. The very first time it crossed my mind, was when my wife and I were going to adopt a child and we went to Texas to do that. And [00:30:00] we were with that child for two days and and then the 16 year old decided to change her mind and they 23rd hour and she only had 24 hours to do it.
[00:30:11] Victoria Collier: And she, in the 23rd hour, the hospital called us at the hotel, right? When we were about to walk out and said, don’t come. And what I spiraled at that moment was she is choosing based on conversations we had with her. She is choosing a life of poverty for this child. which means being on Medicaid versus placing the child in a household that could not only love her but provide for her and also still have a relationship with the birth mother and that family. And that’s a choice that she was making. And I couldn’t go back to my law firm And still help people get on [00:31:00] Medicaid, choose Medicaid. I just couldn’t do it. It was incongruent with me at that time. So, at that time I had two associates. I went to them and I, and they were both with me for about a year at that point. And I said to them, I said, This is what’s going to happen over the next year or two. You’re going to feel like you can do this on your own and you don’t need me because that’s what young associates do. You get big pants. And and so I said, so you have an opportunity. To do that here. You have an opportunity to become a partner in the next year or two. And so I will mentor you and train you up for that. What I’m thinking in my head though, is I need to get out of here. So I need to train them to be the owners, not just partners, but I didn’t position it that way. And so one of them was gone within a year. The other one became my partner. And it was. became my partner and he is a wonderful lawyer, a wonderful person, but not a [00:32:00] wonderful owner. Okay. And so after becoming an owner for a year or two, I can’t remember how long it was. It was obvious that the firm was going to It was going to fail based on reputation that has now been spoiled. And so I kept having to give refunds and repair things with people. And so. I realized I really do care about this firm and I do care about what we do here. We help people live better lives because of what we help them get to include the Medicaid. So that kind of recharged me of, you know, what we do is actually very important for families and people’s livelihoods. So that recharged me. So I stayed for a while and then I got a bit burned out. But you know, there is a difference between getting burned out and wanting to Get out. Just people don’t always understand that. And so when you’re burned out, you want out, but being burned out is fixable. Okay. Absolutely. Wanting out is not fixable. [00:33:00] So when I realized I was burned out and I just wanted someone else to manage the firm for me. I didn’t think about selling. I just thought, I need someone to manage. So that’d be like a per, like a professional legal administrator or a COO. Right. So I was looking for that role. And so then I was hiring for that role and when I did the personality testing on one of the Applicants, the personality tester said, you know, she’s going to want to take over the firm at some point. And he said it like it was a bad thing. And I was like, Oh, like in three months from now or three years from now?
[00:33:35] Victoria Collier: And he’s like, yeah, that I don’t know. And I’m like, okay. So I filed that away and I hired her. And so, so, but what really happened then as far as the sale was, I was where I knew I had to get out and I was not. Burned out. I just needed to get out. And that was, I’m a veteran as I’ve already shared. And it was veterans day and I was going to do a [00:34:00] presentation at an assisted living facility, like I had done many years. And these are my people. Old people are my people, right? And veterans even more so. And so I’m not even on the stage yet. And this woman in the front row starts heckling me, like heckling me. And. I just did not have the appropriate thoughts in my head. And then it occurred to me. If this is my reaction, then I don’t need to be here anymore. I just I am not doing good for my community if this is my reaction. So that’s when I made the decision I need to sell. And so then I waited until my professional legal administrator ultimately showed. That she wanted to take over the firm and so at that point I had a discussion with her and I said, you know There’s an opportunity here. I do want to sell the firm. It’ll either be to a third party or it’ll be to you I’ll give you the first opportunity and then we closed on the firm three months later
[00:34:59] Jonathan Hawkins: Awesome. [00:35:00] So how did you structure that in terms of, you know, payment, how long were you there afterwards? Not that you don’t have to tell us the amount, but just sort of how was it structured?
[00:35:10] Victoria Collier: Yeah. Yeah, so on So, at closing, I received one check that was six figures. Thirty days later, I received another check that was six figures. And then for eighteen months thereafter, I received it was supposed to be twenty four months thereafter, but I received the same check. Monthly payments every month for 24 months. And my obligation was to be there for 24 months, but on a sliding scale down as far as my time. So I started off with, for example, 20 hours a week, then went down to 16 hours a week, then 8 hours a week, then Then I was just on call I ended up being 18 months because at 18 months, I’m just, you know, we were both like, why am I still here?
[00:35:52] Victoria Collier: You know, and she’s like, I know, why are you still here? And I’m like, well, I’m here because I want to get paid you know, under our obligation. And and [00:36:00] So, So, that’s why I say it was supposed to be 24, but we shortened it to 18. We just kind of accelerated it. And so, you know, I was kept on really for just guidance to her.
[00:36:12] Victoria Collier: So if she had any questions and things like that to make her feel comfortable and secure, and also to create marketing materials and policies or procedures, things like that. And really to help the staff feel comfortable that I’m still around, because they liked me. And so, you know, I want, I, we needed to assure them that I wasn’t just gonna leave. And so they saw less of me over time. And so, you know, it was kind of like weaning a baby off of you,
[00:36:40] Victoria Collier: you know, kind of stuff. Yeah.
[00:36:42] Jonathan Hawkins: Okay. So you sold, you left, you started you’re running quid pro quo now, which is, you know, I think you help do a number of, you do a number of different things. I think maybe you. Coach lawyers on how to get ready to sell you help broker the deals or find the deals and then you also do evaluations Did I get that [00:37:00] right?
[00:37:01] Victoria Collier: Right. Yes. so much.
[00:37:01] Jonathan Hawkins: so, you know, I Talked to a lot of lawyers. I’m sure you have to of course by the time they get to you they’re thinking about hey, I want to sell this thing, but a lot of lawyers. I’ll talk to they can’t imagine That they could sell their firm and maybe for a lot of them they couldn’t in the current state of the firm, but what would you say to those?
[00:37:21] Jonathan Hawkins: You Law firm owners out there that think they can’t cannot sell their firm
[00:37:25] Victoria Collier: First of all, I would say you know, don’t presume anything. It costs very little to talk with someone about what are the options and the possibilities, right? And also understand that there’s a difference between selling a Book of business and selling an actual business. And when you don’t feel like you have an actual business, because it’s just you’re a sole practitioner.
[00:37:49] Victoria Collier: And those are the ones that really think like, I can’t sell this without me. There’s nothing. Well, there’s still something, there’s a phone that rings. You might have a website that people go to once in a while. And then there’s certainly [00:38:00] a history of clients and a database that you might have that you might be tight with cause you’re sending out those monthly newsletters. Or maybe you’re not, maybe it’s really cold, but somebody’s willing to at least pick that up and revive it. There’s value in that. Now, how much value has to do with a lot of different different things, but there’s still something, right? I mean. I, you know, so like someone that I’ve been working with sold their book of business for basically 10, 000 and a revenue stream for three years based on what comes off of that book of business.
[00:38:35] Victoria Collier: Well, that’s not nothing, right? I mean, one person I spoke with that a couple of years ago that was not my client. She sold her business for, I think it was like 10 and that’s it. And her only goal was. I just want to pay off my credit cards and have a little bit extra so that I can start my next thing So, you know when we say sell a business, it doesn’t mean it has to be for a million dollars but it can be for [00:39:00] something. So we just have to figure out what is that something right now? I don’t help Always like I don’t act as representative if somebody necessarily is going to go out there and, you know, I only want 5, 000. I could have a consultation with them. I could tell them all the things they need to do and how to do it.
[00:39:16] Victoria Collier: And I’m happy to do that. But obviously they’re not going to want to pay my fees that we charge to sell something for 5, 000, right? But I recently, Jonathan just closed on a 1. 3 million law firm where 82 percent of it was cash up front. I just went under contract with another firm that is a million dollars, 100 percent cash up front. Now I can’t say that’s also the norm, cash up front, but I’m here to change the industry and that is part of changing the industry is doing it differently and that means coming with cash up front.
[00:39:51] Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, you know my attitude and what I tell people it’s you know Even if you think you don’t want to sell or even if you’re not sure you want to [00:40:00] sell It’s worth it To try to position the firm in ways that it could be sold. And you know, if you do that, and I want to ask you some of those ways, but if you do that, makes the firm, I think, more enjoyable to run.
[00:40:13] Jonathan Hawkins: It probably makes it more profitable while you’re there. And then you have the option. You don’t have to, but you got the option. So if for lawyers out there that have their practice, you know, a couple of things, you know, when should they start getting it ready and what sorts of things would you recommend that they do to get it ready?
[00:40:31] Jonathan Hawkins: For that potential sale one day.
[00:40:34] Victoria Collier: So I would say that when you start your law firm is when you start getting it ready for sale. Ha. So from the beginning but short of that you know, like I got an email you know, this morning that said, you know, I’m looking to sell in three to five years. Is it too soon to talk to you? It’s never too soon because there’s always something you can do to make it better. Right. And so the, again the question is what. Is the end result you want out of this? Do you want profit or do you want [00:41:00] peanuts, right? And so if you’re happy just closing the door then close the door. You don’t need to do anything but And when I say that tongue in cheek because even when you wind down it is not an
[00:41:12] Victoria Collier: easy
[00:41:12] Victoria Collier: process,
[00:41:12] Jonathan Hawkins: a while. Yeah.
[00:41:14] Victoria Collier: It does. And so so I would say that at a minimum Depending on Well, just at a minimum across the board, you should be doing something three years in advance. But the state of your firm, are you a sole practitioner? Do you have employees? Do you have associates? All those things will have an effect on truly the runway that you need in order to position it for sale. The other thing too is You can do everything right to position it for sale and at that point someone will ask me Okay, well, how quickly do you think it’ll sell? Well, that’s a whole other set of characteristics that you have to say Well, so like I had to tell one of my clients the other day I said, well you do immigration law and [00:42:00] while you have a great firm you have great profits There’s a lot of immigration lawyers for sale right now So yours might take longer than for example in a state planning firm that you know tends to sell very quickly. And so your practice area may also dictate when you need to get started based on when you actually want to exit and the runway after you’re positioned to actually find the right buyer.
[00:42:24] Jonathan Hawkins: Okay. So you get it positioned and you’re trying to find a buyer. What sorts of ways do you go about finding the buyers? How does an owner do that?
[00:42:33] Victoria Collier: So, A lot of them, when they’re doing it on their own, they’ll start talking to people at bar association events and, you know, just reaching out to colleagues to say you know, I’m retiring, would you consider buying my firm? In fact, that’s how I got my very first client at Quid Pro Quo was I had sold my firm. And I was still at my firm, you know, in that transition period. And I got a call from one of my colleagues and she said, Hey, Victoria, you know, I’m looking to [00:43:00] sell. And I thought I was going to sell to my associate, but at the 11th hour He came to me and he said, I just can’t do it. I can’t buy it.
[00:43:07] Victoria Collier: I don’t feel ready. I don’t feel like an owner. And she said, so now I want to look at outside third parties. And I just said to her and I said, you know, thank you. It’s first of all an honor to even be asked because this is someone’s baby. You’ve got to trust who you’re turning to. Right. So. So I thanked her and then I asked her lots of questions. And I told her, I said, I’m sorry, I can’t buy it because I’m under a non compete for the next however long. And I said, so then I started asking her questions and she said, gosh, you’ve asked me more questions in the last 15 minutes than my broker has in the last 12 months. And she said, do you do this?
[00:43:45] Victoria Collier: And I said, I do now.
[00:43:47] Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Nice,
[00:43:51] Victoria Collier: and we had her, I mean. Within two months I had her a buyer and we closed so she hired me in February. We closed in September of that same year. [00:44:00] So, yeah. And she got 100 percent of her money up front.
[00:44:05] Jonathan Hawkins: That’s nice. So, so you help people find, buy or sell whatever, but you also do the valuations. I want to dig into that a little bit. I get a lot of questions. What’s my firm worth? And I, you know, lots of factors I’m sure, but you know, in your opinion, what are some of the top, you know, one, two, three to five factors that drive value, and then if I’m a law firm owner, You know, if I’m trying to think, how do I drive the value other than, you know, obviously revenue profits, but are there other levers that I could pull to really drive the value?
[00:44:36] Victoria Collier: I would say number one is know your data. If you know how many clients. Call, how many prospects call per week or month? How many of those become clients and what’s your average case value and what percentage of your clients are in each category that you sell? For example, estate planning, how many of those are wills versus trusts?
[00:44:59] Victoria Collier: [00:45:00] Right? Because a buyer is going to look at that. Because a buyer might be like, we don’t do wills. So if you’re 80 percent wills and you only do 20 percent trust, I don’t want to buy you. But if it’s flip, then I might want to buy you. So knowing the data so you can go through prospects fast and easy, okay?
[00:45:16] Victoria Collier: Because it’s emotional going through all that kind of stuff. You get in there, you’re, they’re excited and they’re like, ah, I wish we could have seen this data from the beginning, you know, then we wouldn’t have wasted all of our times. So number one is no. Your data and be able to verify that number two is have clean profit loft statements. I sold a law firm. It was miserable for me. Because They didn’t even have any profit loss statements. They had no bookkeeping system whatsoever. She had she literally handed me her check register on three bank accounts And said, here’s my income and expenses. I’m like, you have
[00:45:57] Victoria Collier: got to be kidding me. And this is a firm that was [00:46:00] making like 600 plus thousand, right.
[00:46:03] Victoria Collier: And had been in business for 30
[00:46:04] Victoria Collier: years. And I was like, you know, so when I went to sophisticated buyers, they were all like, Victoria really? And I’m like, well, I mean, you can get a good deal. And so what it meant was it didn’t mean that, you know, it wasn’t sellable, but it meant that the sophisticated. Business owners who own law firms that wanted to expand they were going to offer such deep discounts So what we or not buy it at all Okay So what we ended up doing in that situation was I mean I went through several of those sophisticated people And then ultimately we sold it to somebody who was not sophisticated who was just as unsophisticated and who didn’t know how to dig deep and basically just Took it.
[00:46:48] Victoria Collier: It also means that You The seller in situations like that are going to self finance. Generally, nobody’s going to come up with money up front when you’re financials [00:47:00] Are in disarray another firm that I sold They hadn’t done their taxes in three years and they hadn’t done their taxes in three years because they didn’t have a bookkeeping system I mean they had a system but it was dependent on the owner to input everything and then Categorized because all their personal and their professional was all going through then they had to categorize everything and she was in such Poor condition Paralysis that she just couldn’t do it.
[00:47:24] Victoria Collier: It was so overwhelming. And I said, if I’m going to work with you to sell your business, you have got to hire someone who can get this in order within the next six months so we can move forward, because I’m not going to work for you if I’m waiting on you to get this stuff done. So it costs them more money, obviously at this point. And we ultimately did sell it. But the P and L’s and the financials just in disarray. So that’s number two.
[00:47:47] Jonathan Hawkins: What about like, past client lists? How valuable are those typically? Or, I mean, maybe I’m sure it depends, but
[00:47:57] Victoria Collier: Of course it does. So, you [00:48:00] know, Past client lists. There’s two things that make it valuable or not. Number one is what type of practice are you in? Right? So for example, PI, personal injury, their past list is probably not as valuable as for example, an estate planning firm, because PI, you have to wait till they get sick again, right?
[00:48:22] Victoria Collier: Or injured. And that’s, I mean, who wants that? Nobody. There’s just not a whole lot of recidivism there. But estate planning on the other hand, I literally could rattle off for you right now, six different opportunities within an estate firm for one client to go through in the life of a client. Okay, six different opportunities. Plus, There’s other firms, you know, other, there’s certain types of firms that lend in themselves well for client maintenance programs, where clients are paying whether they need your services or not. And those are good hot client lists right there, right? If you’ve got people on a client maintenance program, that’s a hot [00:49:00] list and that is worth a lot. So let’s just assume that all of our client lists Are worth something then what makes the difference between whether they’re valuable or less valuable Is how often do you stay in touch with them? Do they open your emails that you send? Do they take action based on that the very first firm I sold? She had her data and she said we send out a monthly newsletter via email Our open rate is 52 percent.
[00:49:30] Victoria Collier: Our take action rate is 38 percent That’s a big difference Data. That’s a, that is a that’s a database that is worth something
[00:49:39] Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah Yeah.
[00:49:40] Victoria Collier: versus, versus I’m still on time matters, which isn’t even in the cloud. And I haven’t touched these people for 30 years, but here’s the database. I don’t know if their numbers are still good or not. I don’t know if we have their email or not, but go ahead and you can mine it all day long. So when you’re looking to buy something like that, [00:50:00] you got to look at it from a marketing standpoint.
[00:50:02] Victoria Collier: What would I pay for that same lead if it was just as just as, you know, sparse as what you’re telling me and how much money and resource do I want to put into, you Crafting this database list that you say you have of 20, 000 prior clients,
[00:50:17] Jonathan Hawkins: and I mean, you had your print newsletter that you were actively sending folks to, so you could just keep sending the newsletter if you bought that, you know, list where if you’d never contacted them in 30 years and you just start sending stuff, they’re like, who is this?
[00:50:34] Victoria Collier: correct? Correct. Well, and also just to add from the newsletter standpoint, we had a different trackable number on our newsletter. So not only could I say we’re sending this out to 8, 700 people of those 8, 700 people, our phone number that’s tracked on that rings X percent. You know, within seven days of us sending it out, you know, so there’s other elevated data that you can get on your
[00:50:57] Victoria Collier: efforts.
[00:50:57] Jonathan Hawkins: good data. Yeah, that’s good data. [00:51:00] So let’s shift. So, you know, somebody’s out there. You’ve helped people sell their firms. What are some of the typical structures you see in the sales? And by that, I mean, you know, internal versus external you know, lump sum payment and you’re gone the next day, earn out seller financing, that sort of thing.
[00:51:15] Jonathan Hawkins: What do you, what have you seen? And maybe what are you seeing?
[00:51:19] Victoria Collier: Well, first of all, I rarely see anyone that’s just gone the next day. Even if it is a lump sum up front there’s generally a transition period. I’d say at a minimum three months. But most often I see six months to 12 months. And that’s whether it’s an outside party or an inside associate buying in. I personally have had more experience with outside third parties coming in to buy firms. And that’s probably because the people who hire me are looking for outside third parties because they either don’t have associates or their associates just aren’t the right kind of Person to become the owner. So I see a lot of that. And with regard to compensation structures around that, [00:52:00] obviously, my goal is to get as much money up front as possible, especially if I’m representing the seller, which I most often do. And so, We are looking generally for an SBA loan. And there’s a particular company that I’m aligned with that they are the largest SBA lender in the United States.
[00:52:17] Victoria Collier: They have such a smooth process and they have a department that just works with lawyers, you know, that funds law firms. So when. When someone’s expanding their law firm because they already have one and they’re buying another one if they get this SBA loan For example, they can come in with no money down and then extend their payment over 10 years, which makes the cash flow very easy it’s a no
[00:52:39] Victoria Collier: brainer.
[00:52:40] Victoria Collier: So I love that arrangement Secondarily what we see is a down payment of a certain amounts, you know, generally anywhere from 20 to 50 percent and then Seller financing for the rest of it. And I would not call that an earn out. I would just call that payment [00:53:00] over time. The other arrangement that I see at least offered a lot and I’m trying to get a, Away from our industry altogether is the earn out.
[00:53:12] Victoria Collier: And that’s where I agree to pay you either a percentage of revenue that comes in over time, or I pay you based on a set price of the firm, but only if we hit certain benchmarks, right? And so you still have to, as the seller be responsible for helping us hit those benchmarks. Well, the seller wants out.
[00:53:35] Victoria Collier: The seller doesn’t want to be stuck. Staying and helping with the benchmarks. So I think it’s, and they, it creates a bitter relationship. And so I absolutely hate it less than fewer than 30 percent of all businesses worldwide have earnouts. And I think that it doesn’t make sense in our world either.
[00:53:55] Victoria Collier: So I don’t like those. Now I do get involved on the buy side [00:54:00] frequently. Usually that’s associates buying in. the firm that they’re at, and they just want to make sure, am I getting a good deal? How can I communicate and negotiate on the same power plane as the current owner? And so I help in those ways as well.
[00:54:18] Jonathan Hawkins: So I’m going to shift again. We mentioned this earlier, you’re looking in Arizona. So, you know, obviously that’s where we have, I guess, the new leader of non attorney owned law firms. What are you seeing out there or are you seeing anything yet with non attorneys buying law firms?
[00:54:36] Victoria Collier: So first of all, as of January of this year there were 67 non attorney owned law firms in Arizona. And for the most part, what I see is that it’s businesses that already exist somewhere else that are legal 10, Tangents or something that they want to [00:55:00] be able to have, you know, a legal piece to it.
[00:55:03] Victoria Collier: And so then they just move into Arizona and do that. So I’m not seeing that they’re buying law firms. I’m seeing that they’re creating them to support their other businesses, like what I’m doing. Essentially, so I’m not seeing a lot of non lawyers buying law firms. I will say this, that when I have put law firms for sale on a listing site, that is for all businesses, I have a lot of non lawyers who inquire about law firms that we have for sale.
[00:55:29] Victoria Collier: And of course, the first question I have to ask is, do you have anyone on your team that is a lawyer that’s going to be the owner of this? They’re like, no. And I’m like, then I can’t talk to you. So I think there. Could be interest out there, especially from these equity groups, but I don’t think they know the rules yet.
[00:55:47] Victoria Collier: And so, you know, so I think there’s interest. There’s just not the possibility yet other than in Arizona.
[00:55:52] Jonathan Hawkins: So, you know, you drop a question like this in a room full of lawyers and you’re going to have two camps probably [00:56:00] fiercely fighting each other. What are your views on opening it up to ownership to non lawyers?
[00:56:07] Victoria Collier: I am 100 percent pro non lawyer ownership is and can be a positive thing for our industry. I think that first and foremost, the lawyers who are entrepreneurial and What we would call business owners who own law firms already, they have a law license, but they’re not doing the law stuff anymore. They see the benefits of the different roles within a business and operate the business accordingly. And I would say that, you know, other than providing legal advice, everything else in a law firm business. Can and should be done by someone who’s a non lawyer that includes the sales that includes the marketing that includes, you know The production that includes post production. And so, you know, the [00:57:00] arguments against it is that, you know, you’ll start the business, we’ll start offering things that are not suitable for the client because it’s all about profit. Well, first of all. A law firm should be about profit. It is a business, right? And if you just want to, I mean, we can do good and still profit.
[00:57:21] Victoria Collier: The more we profit, the more people we can serve. And I think that’s been one of the biggest things about lawyers is, you know, well, I’m just here to help people. I’m here to help people too. And I can do it without the influence of. No matter how much money I make or don’t make, right? In fact, I can serve my clients better when I don’t have to worry about if I’m going to be able to, you know, put food on my table. So I’m a big proponent of it and really thinking about who should be doing what and how can we better serve our clients. I think that’s what holds us back is our [00:58:00] ego and history and tradition and the ways that we’ve been brought up through the legal profession to say that, you know, we have to do it all because we’re lawyers and we’re smarter than everybody else. Well, that’s not true.
[00:58:12] Victoria Collier: None of it.
[00:58:13] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I think it’s coming whether people want it to or not. I do think it’s coming. I think the cracks are there and I, it’s inevitable. It may take a couple of decades to go everywhere, but I think it’s coming. Well, Victoria, I appreciate you coming on. There’s been a lot of cool stuff, helpful information you’ve given us.
[00:58:28] Jonathan Hawkins: If people are out there, I guess two things, number one, if anyone gets in touch with you, you know, what’s the best way. And then number two, you know, who are your ideal clients? Who do you want to work with?
[00:58:39] Victoria Collier: Sure. Great. So. They can reach us at quidproquolaw. com. That’s our website and they can find out what we do there. And if you’re looking to buy a law firm, we have our listings there on our website. So just take a look at that. But our primary clients are those that make more than 500, 000 [00:59:00] gross. And that they want to sell their law firm. Between now and five years from now they understand that they may need to make some changes if they want to get, you know, a great price for it. And they’re willing to take guidance and direction in that. And so we’re also, our perfect client is those that understand the value of an actual valuation, but they’re willing to By someone that just works in the legal space because how you value a law firm is not how you value a dry cleaner or a software company or anything like that.
[00:59:32] Victoria Collier: So so it’s professionals who understand the value of professionals.
[00:59:37] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, thanks again, Victoria, for coming on. I’ve learned a lot and I think everybody else probably has too.
[00:59:43] Victoria Collier: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:59:45] [01:00:00]
