[00:00:00] Lenore Horton: there are a lot of times where people feel like.
[00:00:02] Lenore Horton: Oh, I can’t do that. You know, and I tell people don’t look at me and think it’s not possible. I learned almost everything about running a practice and running a law firm. Everything from hiring, to dealing with clients, to sales to setting up controls. Everything happened within the last 10 years. And I was so bad at being able to convey value.
[00:00:26] Lenore Horton: I couldn’t get people to hire me for , six months, just trying to figure out like, what am I missing? Fortunately, I had a friend who is this international speaker, easily commands in the high five digits, probably now in the six digits per speaking engagement. And she helped me, she gave me some clues as to what I was missing and what I was doing wrong when it came to having conversations with people about why it’s valuable to choose me.
[00:00:57] [00:01:00]
[00:01:26] Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to founding partner podcast. I’m your host, Jonathan Hawkins, really excited about today’s guest. She’s had a pretty cool and diverse journey in and out of law, in law, out of law and back to law. And we’re going to explore all of that. So, and also to other countries. So, today’s guest is Lenore Horton. Lenore, why don’t you tell us about yourself where you are now and and then we’ll dive in.
[00:01:50] Lenore Horton: Okay, well, at a very high level, I am about myself. I’m from the Deep South. I grew up in Louisiana and [00:02:00] Alabama. I am an HBCU grad. I went to Howard University for undergrad and law school. I’ve always had ambitions to live in New York city. I thought it was such a cool and enticing thing when I was growing up in Alabama.
[00:02:15] Lenore Horton: And I did end up going to New York city and living there for quite some time before going overseas. And that was exciting too, because I also had this idea that I would travel the world and speak different languages. And all of that came through for me. And now I’ve settled into the New York City suburbs.
[00:02:36] Lenore Horton: Sometimes your roots just take control of you all over again. And so I find myself back in the suburbs and really enjoying it this time in the north outside of New York City. So I live in Montclair, New Jersey with my family, and I am. A four times founder of businesses. And right now I’m realizing two of them.
[00:02:59] Lenore Horton: One is a [00:03:00] law firm and one is a corporate training company where we provide trainings to other businesses.
[00:03:08] Jonathan Hawkins: We’re going to get into all of that. I want to hear more about all of that. So, but let’s go back. We won’t start all the way at the beginning, but tell us sort of your journey, what drove you to become a lawyer?
[00:03:20] Lenore Horton: That’s such an interesting question because I feel like when we talk about the story of us, we’re really telling two different stories. There’s a story we learned to tell about us. And then there’s a story that we are discovering about ourselves because we’re always developing as people. So my path to being a lawyer felt very straightforward.
[00:03:41] Lenore Horton: I felt like it was. set out for me very early on. For some people, they may notice if I’m doing a handshake or if I’m doing a hand gesture, that one of my fingers looks a little bit different than the others. And that’s because I had this accident when I was a kid, we were all, my siblings and I, we were all over at a family [00:04:00] friend’s house.
[00:04:01] Lenore Horton: And the kids were in another room and we started playing with an exercise bike. So I’m talking some like 30 plus years ago, And I happened to put my finger inside and it nearly cut off the tip of my finger.
[00:04:17] Jonathan Hawkins: Oh my
[00:04:18] Lenore Horton: Well, suddenly everybody’s staring at me and the adults are staring. They have this intense look of horror on their face.
[00:04:25] Lenore Horton: It’s a little unsettling as a kid to suddenly have everybody stop and stare at you because it’s nice to have attention. But also it’s a little disconcerting to have that much attention. And that’s because they were looking in horror at the blood. Well, I go to the ER with my dad and apparently I spent so much time arguing with the doctors around whether it was truly necessary.
[00:04:51] Lenore Horton: to suture. I think we could handle it with band aids, just strategic application of the band aids. You don’t need to bring those needles [00:05:00] anywhere near me. And so at some point they turned to my dad, I think after about 45 minutes as the story goes, where they said, look, we’re going to have to strap her down if she doesn’t let us do this.
[00:05:12] Lenore Horton: And so, that’s when he declared that I would be either a lawyer or a politician. I didn’t know what it meant to be a politician, but I had a sense of what lawyers did because he watched Law and Order every night. So that kind of decided my path. I had this vision of myself growing up to be a lawyer and it became true.
[00:05:32] Jonathan Hawkins: That’s a cool story. I don’t like the finger that, that gives me a little, I get real queasy over that kind of stuff, but all right, so you go to law school and then did you go to big law after law school? Did you go to New York? How did you end up in New York and what were you doing there?
[00:05:46] Lenore Horton: Oh, yeah, I had a clear vision. So I when I was in high school, I had this poster sent to me from Columbia University where it had just a New York City skyline for the majority of the poster in Columbia at the bottom. [00:06:00] I cut off Columbia and then just put the New York City skyline on the inside of my closet because we couldn’t have posters on our walls at home.
[00:06:09] Lenore Horton: And so I had that up talk about having a vision board very early, but I wanted to go to New York City. And I wanted to be a big time, fancy lawyer at a New York city law firm. And that ended up being true. You know, I had this vision of me heels on the pavement of New York city. I didn’t go right away to New York for law school, but I did end up getting there eventually, and I started out at White Case, first as a summer associate, and then as an associate doing white collar crime, embezzlement, RICO, securities fraud.
[00:06:43] Lenore Horton: That was my focus in the beginning. A little other interesting flavorful things in there, but that was the primary focus as a white collar litigator.
[00:06:52] Jonathan Hawkins: I love the stories of the vision and achieving the vision that’s so cool. I love you had the poster in your [00:07:00] room. I love it. So, so you start out big law, you’re doing, you know, big cases, probably really sophisticated things. And you know, fill in any gaps you want, but at some point, you know, you stepped down from your firm and you sort of went the next step of your longterm vision and that was to live overseas. So sort of take us through that journey from where you were To going where you went and sort of how that came about,
[00:07:24] Lenore Horton: Yes, so, yeah, there were definitely a few steps in there after White in Case, I went to go work at Schulte Roth Sable. And there we did more representation of hedge funds, private equity firms, still solidly in the white collar space, but it was different. It was very interesting. I felt like, I learned so much.
[00:07:48] Lenore Horton: They’re especially working with the type of clients that we had also some private client work. And then from there I left and I went to back to law school. I knew that based off of [00:08:00] the relationship I was in, the marriage that I was in at the time, I was going to go overseas eventually. And as part of the next steps in the decisions that we were making as a family.
[00:08:12] Lenore Horton: And so I could read the tea leaves in terms of what was happening. And I felt like the next best thing for me to do after leaving Schulte was to go back to law school and I got a Master’s of Laws, an LLM in International Law and Justice. And after doing that, I taught there for a semester and then promptly we went to Monaco.
[00:08:37] Jonathan Hawkins: you know, that’s cool. So, you know, I talked to a lot of young lawyers I’m sure you have too and they get real worked up about, you know, choosing their path Immediately out of law school or sometimes in law school. I gotta decide now what i’m gonna do forever and you really I mean it’s good to have some idea So, you know, have somewhere to go, but you can always sort of pivot and shift along the way and you did that.
[00:08:58] Jonathan Hawkins: So, you start out white collar defense, [00:09:00] then you move to some other, you know, hedge fund, whatever type work, private client work. And then you said, you know what, I’m going to go overseas. And you went back to school and got ready for it. And you went, you know, and it’s like, I don’t know if you knew that when you were in law school that you might be doing something like this, but.
[00:09:15] Jonathan Hawkins: Or at least the first time you’re in law school. But you know, it’s sort of, you can pivot, you can do different things. And I know you’ve done some other things we’ll get to, but, so you moved to Monaco what’d you do over there? Were you practicing law or were you doing something else?
[00:09:28] Lenore Horton: I tell people when I was in Monaco and then where we moved after that, my principal job was to be a good wife. That was my job. So I referred to myself as a stay at home wife. And some of my friends would say, that’s not really fair. You were writing and publishing important articles on international criminal law, which is true.
[00:09:50] Lenore Horton: And I was teaching at a law school overseas which is also true. But I did feel like my principal Role at that time when you move [00:10:00] overseas is to help settle the family. And when you were the quote unquote trailing split spouse, which is what I was, so that really felt like it was my focus. And I think in some ways it touches upon what you’re talking about in having an idea, because you could see, I had a very clear idea, a clear path that involved me being in a specific city and me being at a specific type of firm in Certain type of role.
[00:10:27] Lenore Horton: And as much as I like the idea of traveling and being overseas internationally, it definitely was a pivot. And so I’m a big believer in embracing what’s coming. You’ve got to focus on the future. And take action towards that next step. If you spend too much time looking in the past, you just, you miss what’s happening right now.
[00:10:49] Lenore Horton: And so I very much did that, but at the same time, I’m not going to lie to people. It was a little bit unsettling because it wasn’t the, [00:11:00] quite how I imagined it to be. I think I learned some important things during that time. And part of it is no one thing is everything right. I do feel like. In the early decades in the early decade, the first decade, I would get hung up on things.
[00:11:20] Lenore Horton: I need to know my major. I need to answer this course. I need to make law journal. And while I do agree that some of that was absolutely necessary to realize the path that I had for myself, the idea that I could only have what I wanted through one path. Was something that I was wedded to. That’s not really true.
[00:11:43] Lenore Horton: And so you don’t make law journal. That one thing is not everything you don’t enter a course. It’s not everything you do horrible your first year. And so nobody’s really looking at you for OCI your next year. That’s not the whole world. It really isn’t. If there’s anything we know [00:12:00] about the U S we’re the comeback nation.
[00:12:03] Lenore Horton: You could come back from anything, you know, I’m not going to go into particular scenarios, but let’s just put it like that you could come back from almost anything in this country.
[00:12:13] Jonathan Hawkins: So take us back. What was it like, you know, you’d been in law firms, you know, probably working really hard, you know, like you and in the firms what was it like to step away? I guess back to law school and then to a different country. Like you said, you know, you sort of left that path. What was, you know, how’d it feel at the time?
[00:12:31] Jonathan Hawkins: Were you excited about it or were you. Okay.
[00:12:37] Lenore Horton: I’m not gonna lie. It was exciting. I felt fancy. I I felt like, wow, this is a dream. I also felt a little bit I Like, well, what else is there? You know, what is the more I felt a little bit wait a second. I’m lost. And I feel like I [00:13:00] have some clues as to how to orient myself, but I’m not quite getting it.
[00:13:05] Lenore Horton: Right. I’m not quite settling in the way that I thought. And so it was just a lot of things. And what’s exciting is I can have all those feelings. It doesn’t have to be any one way or the other. I can have all those feelings and all those experiences about that time. And as long as I’m allowing myself to make room for all of that.
[00:13:28] Lenore Horton: I don’t have to paint the picture just one way for what those years were like. Instead, I can recognize that it was a little bit of a lot of things and maybe a lot of some of them. That
[00:13:41] Jonathan Hawkins: say. It. I think it’s a cool experience. I mean, I wish I could have, and maybe there’s still time, but to go live in another country, you know, that’s quite an experience for anybody. And I don’t know if you had kids at the time that went with you, but you know, that’s just. A cool experience to have and [00:14:00] to take a pause on your career or pivot, whatever you want to call it. You know, kudos to you for actually doing it. I think that’s cool. So you go over to Monaco. How long were you there? Did you stay there? Did you go anywhere else overseas?
[00:14:13] Lenore Horton: wasn’t too long. What we did after being there, we went to Germany. And so that was really the landing pad. We knew that Monaco was kind of a temporary stopover. Towards figuring out where we would be ultimately. So there was a lot of traveling during that time. I went to Australia, I went to China, I went to Hong Kong and India and Singapore.
[00:14:39] Lenore Horton: Again, I went, I have news about Singapore. I went to Cyprus. I mean, we just traveled all over the place. As well as being in Monaco because there were some professional ties there, some business ties there. And then ultimately decided. Humber, Germany would be where we settled, where that next location [00:15:00] would be out of all the places we were considering to move to.
[00:15:04] Lenore Horton: So, and that was, that felt right. It’s an international city. It was a port, it’s a port city, which was an important consideration at the time for business reasons. And And it’s, I think it’s a very sophisticated city in terms of the people, but there are other parts of it too. People make jokes about Northern Germany for a reason.
[00:15:23] Lenore Horton: So there was that, you know, it’s not all untrue. Right. So there was also that part, but I honestly there are parts of it that I really do cherish where I feel like, Oh, I’ll never miss that part of it. There are parts of it where I will totally, Never want to repeat and never was. Yeah, it was
[00:15:44] Jonathan Hawkins: So at some point you came back you’re back in the States now. So at some point you came back you know, take us through, you know, leaving Germany, coming back. And then what did you do when you got here or when you got back?
[00:15:57] Lenore Horton: interesting because I, when I came back at the time, I [00:16:00] was very much, this would be an example of me feeling like I, I was not embracing the future. Right. And you know, I came back to the States at that time, if I felt unsettled while there, I really felt unsettled, you know, when I came back because my marriage had fallen apart.
[00:16:19] Lenore Horton: And I was also recovering from being very sick without realizing that I was sick for a long time overseas. So all of that feeling like it was not quite right. It was really because I had one of the most mundane illnesses on a recurring basis at the time and didn’t realize it. And it took a toll on my health.
[00:16:39] Lenore Horton: So just so nobody has to wonder, well, what was it? It was appendicitis, but instead of realizing it and having surgery right away, I had to have it several times before I finally found a surgeon who could actually take it out without carbonating up completely. So, so that was, you know, that [00:17:00] took a toll on my health, having to go to the ER and have so many surgeries just for something so simple, and then also being sick for so long and not realizing it.
[00:17:08] Lenore Horton: So I come back, I, you know, my marriage is disintegrated. My health is needing to recover, but I also found that, you know, you could come back from being gone and what felt like places of home don’t feel like home anymore. And that’s what I was experiencing. I think also anytime someone has a significant change, especially around a relationship like that, your sense of identity shifts a little bit and the way people are around you shift.
[00:17:38] Lenore Horton: So there are people who I thought might be there. as friends that weren’t really showing up as friends, which now I see is so much, you know, that was such a gift for me. But in the moment, it doesn’t feel like a gift. I’m feeling like, well, I’m coming back home. I’m sick and I’m, you know, divorced and or will be divorcing and I need my people around me.
[00:17:57] Lenore Horton: And you’re feeling like, well, I don’t, the people who I [00:18:00] thought were my people are not my people. And so, so, but I also feel like that was, The path to where things are now, in some ways, I wondered could I have all that I have now if I didn’t go through, through that? Because it gave me an opportunity to say, well, forget about what your life looks like on the outside.
[00:18:23] Lenore Horton: How does it feel on the inside? How is it that you didn’t see that the people who were around you were like that? Did you not see it? Or did you choose to ignore it, right? And it really set me on a stage of saying, what is that life I really want to have? I’ve done it before, right? With the poster and the vision and all of that got realized, but now it was more of a question of not what do I think I want, but what do I truly want?
[00:18:54] Lenore Horton: Right? You’re a kid in high school, you have an idea of what you want, but do you truly know? You [00:19:00] have to get out there and experience things. But now I had experienced some things. And so I felt like I was in a much better place to say, you now know what you want in your life. You’ve had a chance to try some things and experience some things.
[00:19:14] Lenore Horton: And so now go in first, get clear on what is it that you truly want and then go get it. And I feel like that’s what I’ve done.
[00:19:25] Jonathan Hawkins: You know, it’s funny how adversity or, you know, just going through Tough stuff it really it sort of sucks at the time But it can give you some clarity at the end of it to really like you said figure out what you really want Not what you think you want.
[00:19:44] Lenore Horton: So true. So very true.
[00:19:46] Jonathan Hawkins: So so you make it through all of that we don’t I don’t want to dig in too deep there, but you know yet you went through a lot of mental and Challenges whatnot when you came back for a variety of reasons I think [00:20:00] And so did you go back into law or what did you do in terms of your career?
[00:20:05] Lenore Horton: Well, at that time that I came back, I really just didn’t. Think about, I thought to myself, I don’t want to work now. And well, really what I thought is I can’t work right now. What I really was experiencing was an enormous amount of privilege coming back to be able to say that it was an option, right?
[00:20:23] Lenore Horton: Plenty of people have things happen to them. We’re not working with simply not an option. So what I decided at that time was I definitely need to keep busy. I’m the kind of person where I will find things to do. You could stick me in a desert and I will find a way to, yes, I might relax and enjoy myself, but eventually I’ll find a way to keep busy.
[00:20:46] Lenore Horton: And so I am. You know, I didn’t do anything at first, to be honest. And then I realized I had invested in this company that just was not doing, it was not getting off the ground. And I [00:21:00] said, you know what, I’m never going to get any money out of this thing unless something happens more positively. So why don’t I make an offer to get involved in the company and do what I can to help it go to market and then just get out.
[00:21:16] Lenore Horton: And hopefully by that time, you know, let me give myself some. months and hopefully by that time, I’ll have a real sense of what I really want to do after that. So that’s what I did. You know, I was an investor, co founder in this company worked on getting it to market and that experience, you know, not from the, side, but from the funded startup side, seeing what that was like, just sparked something when it came to what I want to do next.
[00:21:52] Lenore Horton: And I think the part of it was it felt so shocking how hard it was. Get a law firm to [00:22:00] help us where I was not the primary contact. So at we’re talking 2004, I was busted for 2014. Well, 2013 and so 2013 a lot of firms, they were not working with lay people. If they were working with a business, they were working with in house general counsel.
[00:22:25] Lenore Horton: Like this concept of flat fees, those were all things that at that time, it was a big deal. There were all these ethics committee opinions about unbundled legal services, because the typical way of working would be on a retainer. And where you really had, you just did the work and you had to fully service the client.
[00:22:47] Lenore Horton: You couldn’t have these discrete flat fees, unbundled scopes with clients. You really had to be retained for them. And so I, a lot of law firms, if they were working with a business, they were [00:23:00] just used to working with an in house attorney. And so when they had to talk to a non attorney, Their ability to explain things was so limited, right?
[00:23:11] Lenore Horton: They were either talking to someone who had grown like this was just all they did. They might as well have been an attorney or they were an attorney. And so I was kind of shocked at how hard it was to get to get people to tell me estimates For the work to to really have an, you know, have people explain it to my co founder where I didn’t have to be in the room all the time.
[00:23:34] Lenore Horton: And so I thought, you know what, this is an underserved market. Clearly. I think this is what I want to do. I want to set up a firm where it’s not so fricking hard for a smart lay person to be served if they’ve got funds.
[00:23:51] Jonathan Hawkins: You know, it’s interesting the insights you learn from the different experiences. So, you know, you became the client [00:24:00] basically, and then you’re on the client side and so you get to see what it’s like as a client when you’re working with law firms and lawyers. And you know, a lot of lawyers, myself included, you know, it’s hard sometimes to put yourself in the clients. Position when you’re, you know, just creating your customer or client journey, for example. You know, we see it when we’re a customer and a. Company, you know, ignores us or treats us wrong. You know, we don’t like the way that feels, but a lot of lawyers can’t, you know, put that in their mind and say, Oh, that’s how my clients are feeling.
[00:24:32] Jonathan Hawkins: But you actually did. So you’re the client and you’re having trouble. You and your co founder, your other business people are having trouble working with a law firm. So that sounds like it was the kernel of the new idea. So what happened next? So you’re at this startup type business. Now, eventually you did go back. Into private practice, right? Tell us how that came about.
[00:24:56] Lenore Horton: Yeah. So I said, you know what I’d actually, [00:25:00] while I was having that experience, I’m not quite sure if that’s when it happened. I think it was only after I exited that company. And I think it was maybe like, I remember it was like December of 2013 and I said, I’m not doing anything for the rest of the year.
[00:25:17] Lenore Horton: I’m just going to go and just be amongst people. It’s the end of the year and January. I can make my decision. And I remember one time going out and I remember this so clearly because I actually met someone who became a really good friend. We’re still good friends that very same, you know, on that particular bite, but I go out, I’m at this dinner in Washington, DC, and I’m meeting different people new people and somebody, it was a networking dinner and somebody said so what do you do?
[00:25:51] Lenore Horton: And I said, well, right now, nothing. And it seemed to bother them more than it, you know, like they seemed more bothered by it than I did. And they were like, but [00:26:00] yeah, but okay. But what are you doing? I said, no, really right now I’m doing nothing. And that’s the whole goal. I am going to make a decision in January, but I’m not thinking about the decision.
[00:26:10] Lenore Horton: Sometimes I feel like you have to let your subconscious do its thing. You have to just sit there and give it a rest and let the subconscious work it out and then the path comes to you. And so I know that feels a little woo for some people. And thankfully my clients know I’m a little bit woo at times.
[00:26:26] Jonathan Hawkins: I’m a big believer in the woo. So, so
[00:26:28] Lenore Horton: yeah, you believe in it.
[00:26:29] Jonathan Hawkins: I believe it. I’ve experienced it. Yeah.
[00:26:33] Lenore Horton: So, so it was the case and it came so clearly, it came so clearly to me that this is what you will do. And what’s so interesting is, so I was still dealing with my divorce lawyer at the time. And I said, Oh, well I need to talk to her about some stuff. This could be a phone conversation, but actually I’ll set an appointment.
[00:26:56] Lenore Horton: And I’ll go up to New York and I’ll ask her [00:27:00] about having your own practice because she was referral only, no website. I think at the time she was still on a Gmail address, but she was very much in demand. And and she was, I could see the way she worked and the way she approached the work. And I said, I want to ask her because I feel like she’s a good model.
[00:27:21] Lenore Horton: for how I might want to start things. And so I come in and I said, you know, what I really want to talk to you about is what I think I might be doing next, which is to open up my own practice. Well, she whipped out two legal pads and she was ready to go. She said, yeah, sure. I’ll tell you everything. And it’s just, it’s so telling because sometimes we forget that we have resources available to us.
[00:27:48] Lenore Horton: And or we assume that they won’t help us, and so we don’t even think of asking.
[00:27:53] Jonathan Hawkins: When you ask, most people do want to help. So
[00:27:58] Lenore Horton: It’s true.
[00:27:59] Jonathan Hawkins: yeah.[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Lenore Horton: It’s true.
[00:28:01] Jonathan Hawkins: So you, you start planning with this attorney about your firm. So, eventually you, you did open it. How was it that January or did it take longer?
[00:28:11] Lenore Horton: March, 2014 and it’s . What was I waiting for? Well, I had all these things I wanted to, you know, she gave me a clear path and I said, well, I wanna figure out this and that and this, and get everything lined up so that when I launch. Here’s the interesting thing. So I start the firm, I launch it it took me about six months to get my first paying client.
[00:28:37] Lenore Horton: Now, it took me my two weeks to get my first client, but they sticked with me. Cause I failed to follow some critical advice that I got from
[00:28:48] Jonathan Hawkins: live and you learn, right? You live and learn. Yeah.
[00:28:50] Lenore Horton: And then after that, I could not, I felt like I had to bend someone to pay a consultation fee. And I share this because [00:29:00] there are a lot of times where people feel like.
[00:29:03] Lenore Horton: Oh, I can’t do that. You know, and I tell people don’t look at me and think it’s not possible. I learned almost everything about running a practice and running a law firm. Everything from hiring, to dealing with clients, to sales to setting up controls. Everything happened within the last 10 years. And I was so bad at being able to convey value.
[00:29:27] Lenore Horton: I couldn’t get people to hire me for six months, you know, six months, just trying to figure out like, what am I missing? Fortunately, I had a friend who is this international speaker, easily commands in the high five digits, probably now in the six digits per speaking engagement. And she helped me, she gave me some clues as to what I was missing and what I was doing wrong when it came to having conversations with [00:30:00] people about why it’s valuable to choose me.
[00:30:02] Lenore Horton: And it was a really important lesson around being yourself and allowing your, you know. Your true you to really shine through and just in understanding that if people gravitate to you, it’s because they see that and they want that. They don’t want you pretending to be somebody else.
[00:30:19]
[00:30:32] Jonathan Hawkins: So, so tell us about your law practice. So what kind of work, legal work do you do? And then, you know, what are your, what kind of clients do you have and how do you charge them? Is it hourly flat fee or retainer or tell us about sort of the business model of the firm itself. And then, you know, has it always been that way or has it sort of changed over time?
[00:30:51] Lenore Horton: Yeah. In the beginning I started out really wanting to represent funded startups and small businesses. And that has [00:31:00] definitely evolved over time. Because in the beginning with my first firm, I saw it as a law practice and not as a law firm. Now we’re really much more of a firm in a rapidly growing firm at that, and we’ve moved away from startups and entrepreneurs and artists and and small businesses.
[00:31:23] Lenore Horton: And our focus really is on the middle market and what I would call upwardly mobile small businesses. high impact nonprofits and as a diverse supplier to large companies. So it’s quite different. But I also feel like it’s an evolution as we’ve grown. We’ve also seen some of those clients from that law practice continue with us and they grew along with us.
[00:31:48] Lenore Horton: So some of them who started out as, you know, a side gig where it became their full time job after. Being fired and then they grew it into a business and now they’re a prime [00:32:00] contractor on government contracts. We’ve, you know, we’ve evolved with them over time as well. And so that, that growth and that evolution, that’s where we have our ideal client now, at least for the law firm.
[00:32:13] Lenore Horton: That’s a very sweet spot for us. And I am, I think, Similar to what I was dealing with then, them, I, then at that time, I see the middle market as probably one of the most underserved markets when it comes to legal services and legal advice.
[00:32:32] Jonathan Hawkins: So you mentioned the growth of your firm, so take us through that. So, so I guess I think I heard you right. You started your firm about 10 years ago and then it was just you, I assume. And then how has it grown? What kind of people and support do you have now?
[00:32:47] Lenore Horton: Yeah. So, in the beginning it was a law practice and I had some support staff over time after a few years. And then I realized this isn’t working the way I want. I need to. [00:33:00] Take this from a job that I like a freelance with support and turn it into a firm, and I have to tell this story because I tell it to people all the time when they talk about starting their own firm, I, right when I made that decision and designed a 2.
[00:33:19] Lenore Horton: 0 version. of it. I got an offer to be a partner at a law firm it would solve all the problems. The very design that I was thinking of was so similar to this already established law firm and law 200 law firm that was asking me to come as a partner. So I said, yes. And that’s the interesting thing.
[00:33:45] Lenore Horton: Sometimes we are ready to do something that’s really big in a breakout. And then something comes along that makes us feel like it will solve all our problems without taking that next action that we were thinking we [00:34:00] had to take. I’m not saying it was a wrong move to go to be a partner at that law firm because It was a good three and a half years in a sense of developing myself professionally and my concept of what, how I wanted to be of service to others. But at the end of the day, if you want to have your own business and you want to grow it to a certain degree and have it established in a certain way, there’s no amount of going and working for someone else that’s going to satisfy you. You want to see your vision realized. And so eventually I recognized you’ve got to leave here.
[00:34:40] Lenore Horton: And it was actually a very pointed question. A business coach said, they said there’s something that you could do right now that would catapult you to the next level, but you’re too chicken to do it. And he said, what is it? And instantly the answer sprung to my mind, you have to [00:35:00] leave this firm. And I knew it to be true.
[00:35:03] Lenore Horton: Now it took me about seven months before I took action on that. Because I was still resisting, but I did. And so three years ago is when I left that firm and started 14 Legal Strategies, LLC.
[00:35:18] Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. That’s pretty cool. I mean, if you start to look back, you’ve got all these pivots and all these changes that have led you to where you are and they all probably influenced and contributed to what you’ve been able to do the last three years with your law firm or your second iteration of your law firm. But again, you know, a lot of attorneys get scared, said I can’t pivot. I just got to stay where I am. But you’re living proof you can, and maybe you should, if you got the feeling, maybe you should and see where it takes you. And so. You know, this might be, I came across one, a post of yours on LinkedIn and it’s, you know, it’s something about not taking a consolation prize.
[00:35:58] Jonathan Hawkins: And maybe this is [00:36:00] part of that story. Or maybe not, but why don’t you explain that post a little bit.
[00:36:05] Lenore Horton: Yeah, it was you know, it’s so funny because I’m going to tell you this story. There are some people who say, well, you should have done it and you could just marketed that even further for yourself. But so I was at this firm. I’m a partner. I’m at an AMLaw 200 firm. I’ve got more partners than I know, right?
[00:36:24] Lenore Horton: Personally. And it felt good. It felt like, okay, remember when you were that kid in Alabama and you wanted to be a partner at a fancy New York law firm? Well, here you go. A partner, really, at a fancy New York law firm. Well, here you go. And so I had this idea of of servicing clients where you serve as an outside general counsel, as a fractional general counsel.
[00:36:57] Lenore Horton: And to me, I felt like I kept [00:37:00] hearing that term, but then when I would ask some basic questions, like, well, how many employees does the client have? What’s their revenues? What, where do they plan to be in a year? What about five years? This outside general counsel wouldn’t know the answers. And I thought, well, you were an in house general counsel.
[00:37:17] Lenore Horton: You should be fired if you don’t know those answers. And, you know, by that time I had developed this concept for serving as general counsel. And I thought this should be a practice area. Like back in the day, entertainment law was not a practice area. Nobody recognized it as one. It was a matter of contracts, intellectual property.
[00:37:38] Lenore Horton: You know, and it was situated within a particular industry, but people didn’t see it as a practice area. And I feel the same way a little bit about fractional general counsel services and chief legal officer services. Eventually people will recognize it as a practice area. So I wanted to set up a practice area around that.
[00:37:58] Lenore Horton: And at first it was, [00:38:00] yeah, sure. That sounds great. And I put together a briefing memo on it, you know, just like a positional memo. How about we position this, who are potential partners who could be part of the practice area, all these different things, you know, you’ve got to make your case. And Everything’s looking good to go and then I get this call after all this effort, after all this encouragement saying, Oh, sorry, it’s a no go.
[00:38:24] Lenore Horton: It’s a no go. And I was, I don’t know why, I was pissed and they knew it. Okay. I
[00:38:30] Jonathan Hawkins: believe it. Dealing with the bureaucracy.
[00:38:33] Lenore Horton: So heated. It was kind of a series of incidents. This one, I was upset. And and so, you know, and I’m the kind of person when I’m upset, I’m not necessarily a railing upset. It’s like you get, get scared when I get quiet.
[00:38:49] Jonathan Hawkins: You stew, you got the stew,
[00:38:53] Lenore Horton: so I was pretty heated and, you know, but I also try not to, [00:39:00] you know, I tried to step back and not be reactionary and I said, all right, they said, well, look, the callback, you know what, we have all these different practice groups with no chair. And I was like, don’t you want people who really want to be a chair of that practice area?
[00:39:17] Lenore Horton: So I did take a look at them and I said, what’s most closely aligned? And there was a corporate governance practice group with no chair. And I said, that’s probably most closely aligned with it. And I said, well, this looks like it would be the most appropriate practice group. Well, so they said, Okay, great.
[00:39:40] Lenore Horton: Yes, we think you’d be perfect for it. You know, and by that time I had done quite a few initiatives on my own within the firm that they really liked. And I think to this day they still have in place. And then I was like, Okay, great. You know, hang up the phone and I’m just thinking no, this just will [00:40:00] not do, this will not do.
[00:40:02] Lenore Horton: It’s not, can’t do it. So I tried to sleep on it and then I, the next day I said, you know what? I can’t. I can’t. And cause I did feel like it was a consolation prize. It was not the true vision that I had. I, You know, every now and then, I won’t say I never looked back, but every now and then I was like, kind of dumb, you could have done it for six months and at least it’s on your resume, but it just didn’t feel right, you know?
[00:40:32] Lenore Horton: And so I don’t know what usefulness that would have been ultimately just to throw it on the resume and impress people. And it felt like it would have been a distraction for me doing what I needed to do, which was to leave, you know, that was right around that time when that business coach was like, you know what you need to do, what is it?
[00:40:53] Lenore Horton: So, so I said no to the consolation and it was a, it was to me, it wasn’t, it’s a big deal to be a chair of a [00:41:00] practice group for an AMLA 200 firm with like 300 partners. And it’s an international firm that’s major, but I also felt like they deserve somebody who truly wanted it. And I wouldn’t have been a good fit if knowing, knowing that I didn’t really want it and that it felt like it wasn’t going in the direction I truly wanted it to be.
[00:41:22] Jonathan Hawkins: I’ll tell you, I mean, that takes a lot of courage. I mean, that was a big trophy a sure thing some prestige, all of that. And you said, you know what? That’s not, I don’t feel it in my heart. I’m leaving. I’m going to do my own thing. That takes a lot of courage. So. Kudos to you on that one too. So you went out, you started a firm Horton Legal Services.
[00:41:44] Jonathan Hawkins: You’ve got that going. But you’ve also got this other, you know, you’re an entrepreneur at this point. I can tell. And you, so you not only did you start your law firm, eventually at some point you started a non law firm type business. Tell us about that. Is it [00:42:00] Legal Training Studio?
[00:42:01] Lenore Horton: Yeah. So not at some point. So we have 14 legal strategies and I intentionally chose strategies instead of services, because I felt like that was missing from a lot of what. Of what the middle market needed was strategy. But at the same time that I started the law firm, I started a second business, that’s not a law firm, legal training studio.
[00:42:24] Lenore Horton: And the point there is you can’t always be in the room. And if you’re dealing with non lawyers, they need to be educated. Now, remember how I said that there’s two stories you’re telling. Okay. When you tell the story about yourself, it really is only about last year, I would say, where I started to understand there was something about that story with my dad that has played a role my whole career that I didn’t realize until recently.
[00:42:54] Lenore Horton: And it’s a big part of why I feel so impassioned to educate [00:43:00] businesses and executives and managers around legal issues so that they have it. A better relationship with their legal matters and with the lawyers they choose to work with one where you’re agnostic about who they choose as a lawyer or whether they choose a lawyer.
[00:43:20] Lenore Horton: So I feel like a lot of firms approach it where we should be the lawyer, or you should have a lawyer handle that. But, you know, my dad, he was a single father of five kids. And one of the things that he did that was part of his passion was real estate. And so in addition to working his corporate job, right, he would look for houses in communities and he would check out the ones that looked run down and he would look up information about them and he would pay the fines, pay the [00:44:00] taxes.
[00:44:00] Lenore Horton: pay these bills and then eventually he would quiet title them and start fixing them up and he would rent them out, oftentimes to single mothers. People don’t realize how hard it was to rent property if you were not married, to have bank accounts if you were married and maybe wanted to leave your spouse, right?
[00:44:20] Lenore Horton: Things like that. So he would fix it up and rent out these properties and he hired a lawyer to help. But at some point the lawyer said, you know what, you really can’t afford me to keep working on this for you, right? Why don’t I teach you how to do this yourself? And so that lawyer helped him learn the law around the issues that he was dealing with.
[00:44:51] Lenore Horton: so that he could better serve himself and his family. And it turned into such a deep friendship [00:45:00] that when my dad passed away he was so choked up. He could not deliver the speech. He gave it to us to read, but he just did not feel like he could deliver the speech. He knew, when we read it, we could see just how deep the relationship is in terms of how much he knew about us.
[00:45:19] Lenore Horton: My dad must’ve talked about. All of us to him ad nauseum considering how much he knew in the dreams. He even knew that we were scared about his spiritual beliefs and he reassured us around that. It was a really beautiful and touching note, but to understand that is the, at the end of the day, being willing to share knowledge and not worried about how it might impact you financially, because you want to be of service.
[00:45:49] Lenore Horton: It did so much for us as a family in terms of being supportive of my dad, who was, I mean, think about it. You’re a [00:46:00] black man in the South at that time in this country, single father to five kids. It was not easy, you know, and there were times he faced outright flat out discrimination, but he just never really talked about it very much, at least to us.
[00:46:19] Lenore Horton: And he forged this relationship. with somebody who was willing to say, I will help you. I will help you in any way I can to overcome this. And that’s, I think part of why I feel so impassioned to say, just teach people so that they have the tools and they can make the decisions about whether they want your help to implement it and to be accountable, or if they want to do it on their own.
[00:46:42] Lenore Horton: Because where the people who really want you, there’s no amount of teaching and DIY that will satisfy them. They will end up coming to you anyway. And for the people who do it on their own, that’s a testimony to how good your stuff is. So just go ahead and give it to them.[00:47:00]
[00:47:00] Jonathan Hawkins: And so your father sounds like a remarkable man. And so there was a spark there along with some other sparks that led you to the legal training. So, who are sort of the customers of legal training studio? Are they the business owners or executives at the businesses?
[00:47:19] Lenore Horton: yeah, so we make legal training studio available as corporate training for clients of the law firm. We give them complimentary access if they come on retainer with us at the law firm. So that’s the level of training that we have. We want it to be sufficient for corporate training purposes around various legal issues.
[00:47:40] Lenore Horton: But we also understand that our audience will primarily be lawyers, and we want to make it accessible for people who, are trying to understand and learn it. Now, this is again for corporate training, but it has to be accessible. So we look for ways to make it fun, make it easy for people to [00:48:00] learn. I’m lucky to have experience with online training.
[00:48:04] Lenore Horton: I’m even more lucky to have people close to me who are deeply experienced in online trainings. And so we’re you know, we set this up in a way where people really are able to take the information and implement it. I love it because for example, if we are in the law firm talking to a client about something and we’ve already done training about it, we’ll remind them, Hey, this is something you can give your team.
[00:48:30] Lenore Horton: to help them implement what we’re talking about where you don’t have to go and repeat everything to them, right? Or where they can have a separate space to come and do a workshop, a live workshop with us and ask questions without having to get charged as if you are in a direct attorney client relationship like that.
[00:48:51] Lenore Horton: So, we’re now actually, as of next month, we’ll be making legal training studio available to the general public at large. [00:49:00] not just to our clients. And I’m super excited about it because when I say next month, I mean, July, I don’t know, publish on this. So I mean, July and you know, the exciting part is I think it’s accessible for, are you thinking about starting a business or do you have an established business where you’ve got maybe like a team of 10 salespeople who need to understand these concepts around.
[00:49:26] Lenore Horton: Sales conversations and the legal issues that go into them, right, especially relevant now, considering some of the FTC activity out there around advertisements and promises and sales conversations. So, that’s the level we’re on. It’s easily accessible for a variety of people.
[00:49:44] Jonathan Hawkins: So that’s really cool. So a couple of questions about that. So, you know, how do you price it? What’s sort of the pricing mechanism for folks, whether they’re your clients or non clients, and then where is it hosted or what’s the delivery [00:50:00] mechanism? Are they, do they have a, is there a client portal where they can access the library? I’m curious how you’ve sort of designed it.
[00:50:08] Lenore Horton: Yeah. So legal training studio, it’s complimentary for clients of the firm who come on working there. So that’s that’s something that’s just a benefit for being at the law firm on retainer as a client in that way. For those who are not at the law firm, we have programs that will be introduced that allow you to do a one course where you purchase access to one course and you take it online all the way up to deeper programs where we’re basically helping people set up their own legal department.
[00:50:40] Lenore Horton: without using the firm. How do you find the people? How do you set a budget that lasts a year? That’s realistic. How do you time your work where we give them all of that training? And that includes group coaching, live trainings and one on one coaching. So there’s a wide variety everywhere between, [00:51:00] you know, the low three digits for the one off courses.
[00:51:03] Lenore Horton: All the way up to five digits for the really high end service being available with that. But the interesting thing is for everybody, we’re going to start off free in July with a huge mastermind training,
[00:51:17] Jonathan Hawkins: That’s really cool. I love when law firm owners. Are innovating and this is I would say this is innovative. Most firms aren’t doing anything like this. So I’m going to be really interested to check in with you over the next, you know, 12, 24 months to see how this thing’s taken off. I think that’s really cool. I want to pivot for a minute. Maybe get a little bit more on your personal life a little bit. I understand you’re a foster parent, so I know that’s an Important to you. So, you know, you can talk about that a little bit, but also want to hear about, you know, you’ve got a lot going on. You got tons going on and then you throw that in the mix, you know, and you’re still smiling over there.
[00:51:56] Jonathan Hawkins: I, how do you do it all?
[00:51:58] Lenore Horton: sleep deprivation. I’m just [00:52:00] kidding. So, so yes, we’re foster parents. This’ll be our, I think this is our sixth year as foster parents. It’s been pretty active with the pandemic happening. right as I got licensed when I was first licensed and it’s been a pretty good clip since then. But we do see our days sun setting soon as a foster parent, probably sometime, you know, next year.
[00:52:26] Lenore Horton: And that’s fine because we’ve got a 14 month old right now and and also we’ve got five month old twins. So
[00:52:35] Jonathan Hawkins: Wow. That’s a lot of work. That’s
[00:52:38] Jonathan Hawkins: a lot of work. I’ve got twins and I know they’re older now. They can do, they can take care of themselves, but yeah, that’s a lot of work.
[00:52:44] Lenore Horton: Yes. So it’s, you know, it’s so interesting because this too is a story. That’s a, like you said, we’re pivoting to the personal. That too is a story. It’s a story of resilience, of of [00:53:00] having a vision that you wanted to realize of overcoming the obstacles. You know, I tell people having a family, with children is something I’ve been trying to realize for decades.
[00:53:11] Lenore Horton: You know, this is a decades long quest. And so, and there were definitely times in there where I said, well, maybe I can convince myself that this isn’t what I really want. You know, I have to say that definitely happened at times where I thought, well, do you really want it? And that was really all about Just simply having the obstacles come up and feeling like, well, I’m not so sure I can overcome them.
[00:53:34] Lenore Horton: And so questioning what you desire is a great way of avoiding having to questioning what you desire is a great way of having to avoid doing the work and facing the fears of failure. So, so I you know, now it feels wild and crazy. I’m in my mid forties and closer to 50 than 40. I actually now realize [00:54:00] now remember.
[00:54:01] Jonathan Hawkins: I won’t tell anybody.
[00:54:05] Lenore Horton: And it, it feels wonderful. I have this crazy young family. I have an amazing partner who’s also a professional. So we’re both professionals with demanding careers. And and I’ve got two businesses. It’s so how am I still smiling? And you know what? I was talking to somebody recently about this.
[00:54:28] Lenore Horton: They asked me if it was harder with the firm. And I said, actually, I find it easier. I thought I would feel overwhelmed, but really it clarifies, it creates focus around what’s truly important and what’s needed. Like a lot of. new firm owners will find ways to keep themselves busy. But what are they keeping themselves busy with?
[00:54:50] Lenore Horton: Same thing for a business owner. You know, this is why I like representing the segment that I do, because as you elevate and you get into that middle market, you know that you’ve [00:55:00] got to be focused about how you spend your time and what you allow yourself to be distracted with. And so in many ways, I feel like it became easier because I had a clear understanding of what’s important.
[00:55:12] Lenore Horton: what’s needed, what’s useful.
[00:55:14] Jonathan Hawkins: You know, it, another question. So there was another post you did and maybe this plays in it too, which I love and I want you to expound on, but it was, I’ll call it the do it ugly. Post. You said just do it ugly. What do you mean by that?
[00:55:30] Lenore Horton: You know, I have feelings about the do it ugly. I get it and I agree. And this is why oftentimes I won’t go back and edit some of my posts for pretty simple typos. In a way I kind of don’t want that client who won’t hire me because of that tiny typo on a LinkedIn post. If you think that’s reflective of like what I’m going to do and.
[00:55:53] Lenore Horton: the legal work, then okay, you know, that’s fine. But that’s an example of doing it ugly. You can, [00:56:00] and this is hard when you come from big law, it’s very hard. This idea of moving away from this concept of perfect. There’s a time and a place for making sure everything is tight and buttoned down. But then if you let that carry over into the unnecessary, you’re just not going to get to where you need to go.
[00:56:20] Lenore Horton: Okay. And also a lot of people are not paying attention to it. You’re not paying attention to it and they’re far more forgiving than we assume. Do it ugly. I sometimes say cringe because sometimes when we do things ugly, we don’t, we’re not willing to give ourselves the recognition for what we accomplished.
[00:56:42] Lenore Horton: We don’t want to highlight it. We don’t want to count it as a win. We don’t want to celebrate it. We don’t want to talk about it. We don’t want to share it. Because we have in our mind that critical part around how we did it and where we felt like it could have been better. So do it.
[00:56:58] Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, you know, [00:57:00] lawyers, perfectionism is a problem with a lot of lawyers. I mean, it’s for who knows. All sorts of reasons, but it is a common problem, I think, with lawyers. So we’ve been going for a while. I want to be respectful of your time, but I do want to hear, you know, what’s the long term vision for your firm, for your business, for whatever where do you want to be, you know, 10, 15, 20 years from now?
[00:57:24] Lenore Horton: Oh,
[00:57:25] Jonathan Hawkins: And I asked because when you’re a kid, you knew you had that poster. You knew you’re going to New York. So
[00:57:32] Jonathan Hawkins: what is there a poster up now? What’s down the road?
[00:57:36] Lenore Horton: there is. You know, this is scary. I don’t know if I’ve said it. I’ve said it in different groups and forums, but these were all closed. Nothing that would get posted out there in the public forever. But do it. So in the spirit of do it, I will say that the long term vision is for Courts and Legal Strategies, [00:58:00] we will be a force and a leader when it comes to how the middle market is serviced as fractional general counsel and fractional corporate counsel services. I think there’s so much more we could be doing in terms of approach. I think it’s so easy to give budgets for clients, to give updates that go beyond itemized invoices where it really clarifies what’s happening, what’s coming down the pipe. We’re going to see more of these companies realize that an external legal department is the solution.
[00:58:39] Lenore Horton: or the largest part of their legal solution while they focus on the thing that they’re really good at when it comes to their internal staffing. And that means that firms have to level up, and that means that there needs to be a leader in how that’s done, and 14 Legal Strategies will be that leader.
[00:58:58] Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I’m [00:59:00] excited to watch it happen. So I heard it here first. We’re going to, we’re going to keep an eye on you the next five, 10, 15 years. So I know you’ll do it. So thanks for coming on for people out there that want to find you, get in touch with you. What’s the best way.
[00:59:16] Lenore Horton: So if they’re looking to get in touch with me personally, I am all over LinkedIn. That’s where you’ll see the professional side. If you go to LenoraHorton. com, it will point you over to my LinkedIn profile, or you can type my name into LinkedIn and you will likely find it. If you’re looking for the law firm, that is HortonLegalStrategies.
[00:59:36] Lenore Horton: com. And if you’re looking for Legal Training Studio, that is LegalTrainingStudio. com. And if you want to see a little bit about me outside of the professional, then you can head over to Instagram. My handle is LenoraHorton. com spelled out D O T C O N. All
[00:59:54] Jonathan Hawkins: All right. Lenore, thanks again for coming on. This has been fun.
[00:59:57] Lenore Horton: right. Thank you.
[00:59:59] [01:00:00]
